Frontlines ilvl sync

[Nalien]

Nailen, I understand what you want with enticing people to wolves den, but it needs to not involve frontlines. It needs to be an incentive within wolves den itself.

For the vast majority of people wanting objective based pvp, we would rather gnaw our foot off than do arena....FOR ANY REASON. Seriously, they could give me a golden chocobo that shit novus weapons on Sundays and I would rather poke my eye out than do arena. Morale gear not working and giving everyone base morale does the exact same thing just in opposite ways, and neither will force people into doing arena if they don't want too.

Again (I'm so tired of this...), I'm not suggesting you HAVE to do Wolves' Den. I appreciate that it might be hard to follow, because my opinion has evolved over time as a result of these discussions (well, if you can call half the posters just resorting to insults "discussions").

If you want to only do Frontlines, only do Frontlines. It still rewards you with Rank EXP and Wolf Marks, you can still progress only doing Frontlines (again, with Morale adjusted to play less of a drastic impact).
If self mutilation isn't your thing, and you wouldn't mind doing Wolves' Den, you do Wolves' Den to speed up the progression. Wolves' Den matches take less time, after all.

I am not suggesting making Frontlines a carrot on a string that forces people into Wolves' Den. I'm suggesting making Morale a carrot on a string that can entice people into Wolves' Den if they don't loath the arena. You can see the difference, right?

[Tandy]

Even if wolves den would be 200% faster to acquire it, I doubt many who wouldn't already do arena would do it is my point. If someone is going to do arena they will give it a shot and like it or not. Having leaderboards and seasons and special wolves den only gear would and should be the solution to help get people playing it....not worrying about getting people to suffer through cause they can get gear faster to use elsewhere. Both types of pvp need separate rewards I think, to foster populations in both.

Also, tying it to faster gear for frontlines also encourages more win trading by people resenting doing it cause it would be fastest way to gear, since they want it ASAP and god knows the last thing anyone needs is more win trading period.

[Nalien]

Both types of pvp need separate rewards I think, to foster populations in both.

Only issue with that is I doubt XIV can sustain two separate PvP communities. Even non-PvPers (like yourself?) who are interested in Frontlines are in the minority in XIV, the majority thinks it's a waste of development in a PvE game (especially a Final Fantasy one). If there is some overlap, then it's much healthier for both communities, in my opinion.

With Morale, and Wolf Marks progression (I'm sure I've mentioned adjusting that as well), adjusted slightly, I really don't think it would be something people have to suffer through. Certainly enough to entice a few people into Wolves' Den more regularly, and if any are enticed into Wolves' Den (again, because they want to, not because they have to), then it's a success in my opinion.

Also, tying it to faster gear for frontlines also encourages more win trading by people resenting doing it cause it would be fastest way to gear, since they want it ASAP and god knows the last thing anyone needs is more win trading period.

A reason they should clamp down on win trading, nothing more.

Couldn't have said it better. Wolve's den should be based around competitive ladder instead of being some place to gear up.

Again, not saying you have to go to Wolves' Den to gear up. I'm just saying it should be there as an option; like grinding tomestones to gear up along side Coil.

To give an example;

Currrently it takes around 7 wins to obtain the lowest costing i70 gear, and around double that for the most expensive. I'd suggest lowering that to 2~3 wins at Wolves' Den, and 1~2 at Frontlines. It is, after all, the entry level PvP gear (sitting right under the Frontlines iCap, too), I don't think it should be as much of a grind to obtain as it currently is. None of the PvP gear should be as much of a grind as it is.

If we're keeping Morale, it should be for both, not just Wolves' Den. Alone it makes no sense in Wolves' Den, if that's to be the competitive scene anyway. As it stands, Wolves' Den isn't about competitive play, it's about grinding. Leave Morale in and make the grind tolerable, or remove Morale completely and overhaul Wolves' Den. Don't half ass it.

Once it's out, you might realize it doesn't hurt the population at all, it's the way wolves den is that hurts itself and it needs changed.

I agree, I just think it would be easier to fix a broken bridge, than to knock it down and build a new one; to butcher a metaphor.

Keep Morale in tact, adjust its effect as needed, reassess PvPs progression scale (it's too steep). Wolves' Den and Frontlines both supplement each other, without having a negative impact on each other. From there they can both split off over time.

I really don't think Morale gear, if kept at all, should be a difficult thing to obtain. It really does confuse me that XIV was such a progressively "easy" game compared to XI, yet occasionally the developers see fit to add something, usually meaningless, that is comparable to XI. Morale gear and PvP Ranks is one of those. Camping Vistas for a minion is another, as are Behemoth and Odin. It's an... Odd quirk of XIVs, I guess.

How do you know pvp gear will be subpar, what makes you believe melded stats won't also take effect therefore removing the whole "we lose 4th stat argument" because if it does you can still get 5 stats out of your gear and i don't see how you would need more.

You obtained PvP gear! Your reward? Now you have to meld it to make it equal to PvE gear in PvP!

What Tandy suggested is workable (NPC at the camp could convert Morale into whatever stat people want, I imagine). Having to meld PvP gear to make it work wouldn't be a solution, that's the same reason they should stick with the i80 cap instead of perhaps an i90 like they suggested. I'm sure nobody wants the richest folk in Wolfram/etc to be the ones with an advantage in Frontlines.

[Pibz]

Even if wolves den would be 200% faster to acquire it, I doubt many who wouldn't already do arena would do it is my point. If someone is going to do arena they will give it a shot and like it or not. Having leaderboards and seasons and special wolves den only gear would and should be the solution to help get people playing it....not worrying about getting people to suffer through cause they can get gear faster to use elsewhere. Both types of pvp need separate rewards I think, to foster populations in both.

Couldn't have said it better. Wolve's den should be based around competitive ladder instead of being some place to gear up.

[Shake0615]

First of all please don't compare how pve progression should work vs PvP.
Also if progressing in skill is so intangible and not having gear progression is so needed in PvP, i guess that why all those multiplayer(PvP) games that aren't based on that at all are so successful right?
Moving on..

Ha! And why shouldn't I compare the two? Once again, Naoki Yoshida has repeatedly (up until E3) stated that PvP progression will function the exact same as PvE content-wise; each has their own skills, their own gear and their own ranks/levels. How can you not compare the two? And most multiplayer games from Call of Duty to World of Warcraft include upgrades as a reward to people who choose to participate in that content. What other multiplayer games do you have in mind that don't offer one shred of progression?

You do get something to show for your work, gear(even if it's just vanity in frontlines), ability upgrades and now mounts.
Also nice info , if it wasn't for the fact that it is info that was nearly 5 months old, in some cases, by the time the game even released let alone the time they even introduced wolve's den, and more than 1 year old than the time we're actually getting frontlines.
Don't expect info that is almost an year old on content that is yet far away, to aklways remain accurate.
I will concede on the "never meant" bit being wrong though but, more recent statements clearly say(Not even talking about E3 ones, earlier than that) that Frontlines would be the first step to get players into PvP, so that they might eventually, if interested, get into what they call the "real pvp"(wolve's den) i'm paraphrasing of course and can't be bothered to find the source but it is the most recent info, therefore what you should have expected.

If you can't be bothered to find your source, then I frankly can't be bothered to believe you. Even if it was slightly before E3, that's still months of people working in the Wolves' Den only to have their rewards deprecated before the full release of the content. And you may or may not have noticed but glamours are not available in the Wolves' Den and I have no reason to believe they will be available in Frontlines. So again I ask what is the purpose in obtaining that PvP gear if you can't even glamour the useful gear to look like the PvP gear?!

Basically just because they didn't envision it at the early development stages doesn't meant they didn't realize later it would be better, in fact that's the way game systems should be developed as opposed to basing them completely on someone initial sketch idea.

Of course I expect them to deviate from their development plans as they beta test and tweak content. But I also expect them not to keep a bombshell like dropping morale from Frontlines under wraps for 7 months after releasing the Wolves' Den! I expect them to announce those changes and not keep them secret so that the playerbase doesn't waste their time. Until that 4th stat (morale) is replaced with something worthwhile, P-V-EXPLETIVE-P gear will be sub par in PvP battlegrounds! That. Is. Ludicrous. When they tinker around to that extent, I expect them to keep us in the loop.

Couldn't have said it better. Wolve's den should be based around competitive ladder instead of being some place to gear up.

Wolves' Den is not the only place to gear up. Frontlines will also offer Wolf Marks and PvP xp. No one is forcing you to participate in the Wolves' Den...

[Tandy]

I consider myself an objective based or large scale pvp'er. If an MMO I'm playing has it I spend the majority of my time there over raiding and other things. If frontlines works out I doubt I will see coil or a primal much at all lol. I think you will be shocked at the people playing it, and more shocked that they are cause of the no morale. Once it's out, you might realize it doesn't hurt the population at all, it's the way wolves den is that hurts itself and it needs changed.

[Shake0615]

I consider myself an objective based or large scale pvp'er. If an MMO I'm playing has it I spend the majority of my time there over raiding and other things. If frontlines works out I doubt I will see coil or a primal much at all lol. I think you will be shocked at the people playing it, and more shocked that they are cause of the no morale. Once it's out, you might realize it doesn't hurt the population at all, it's the way wolves den is that hurts itself and it needs changed.

I think sometimes people are misunderstanding what the Wolves' Den PvPers are saying about the gear. When we say we want to use the gear, we don't mean that we need to have morale intact. As you and I were discussing earlier, I want it removed! But until that 38 Vitality, 37 Mind, 40 Critical Hit Rate and 44 Morale on the Elktail Grimoire becomes 38 Vitality, 37 Mind, 40 Critical Hit Rate and 44 Determination (or Spell Speed), then that piece of gear is worthless because it is missing a stat. We don't necessarily want morale. We just want the gear to be equal in Frontlines being that there is no morale.

I like objective-based PvP way more than I like arena, but that doesn't mean that I'm willing to throw out all my progress to play Frontlines.

[Tandy]

SE might do something like convert so many points of morale into 1 Vit or something too, which would be a nice boost but still keep damage and mitigation equal. Would work for all classes and be useful for pvp. More hp is always welcome lol.

I agree that it sucks to have a useless stat in the gear, and that part needs fixing in some way.

[Shake0615]

SE might do something like convert so many points of morale into 1 Vit or something too, which would be a nice boost but still keep damage and mitigation equal. Would work for all classes and be useful for pvp. More hp is always welcome lol.

I agree that it sucks to have a useless stat in the gear, and that part needs fixing in some way.

Once again, I'm happy that we can agree on something! ^_^

[Pibz]

Ha! And why shouldn't I compare the two? Once again, Naoki Yoshida has repeatedly (up until E3) stated that PvP progression will function the exact same as PvE content-wise; each has their own skills, their own gear and their own ranks/levels. How can you not compare the two? And most multiplayer games from Call of Duty to World of Warcraft include upgrades as a reward to people who choose to participate in that content. What other multiplayer games do you have in mind that don't offer one shred of progression?

I never said any shred of progression, i said upgrades being attained through progression not making you completely and absurdly overpowered compared to someone who doesn't have them. Also a lot of the popular mobas offer pretty much no upgrades through progression the main thing you get out of it is skill.
Also i don't really play call of duty, but i'm pretty sure just started or hardcore veteran an headshot is an headshot, no?
Also PvP shouldn't be compared to PvE in terms of the effect gear has on it simply because you're playing directly AGAINST other players, while in the other you're just fighting a script and regardless of how far you progress it doesn't hinder other's own progress.

If you can't be bothered to find your source, then I frankly can't be bothered to believe you. And in case you haven't noticed, glamours are not available in the Wolves' Den and I have no reason to believe they will be available in Frontlines. So again I ask what is the purpose in obtaining that PvP gear if you can't even glamour the useful gear to look like the PvP gear?!

Here's your source : http://www.playerattack.co.uk/news/2...-realm-reborn/(look for the pvp question) believe it now?
Well funny thing, for one your pvp gear is still usable in wolves den then you have the fact that because gear is synced you can actually use your i100 gear,as it should have the stats you want, in frontlines without having to glamor it .

Of course I expect them to deviate from their development plans as they beta test and tweak content. But I also expect them not to keep a bombshell like dropping morale from Frontlines under wraps for 7 months after releasing the Wolves' Den! I expect them to announce those changes and not keep them secret so that the playerbase doesn't waste their time. Until that 4th stat (morale) is replaced with something worthwhile, P-V-EXPLETIVE-P gear will be sub par in PvP battlegrounds! That. Is. Ludicrous. When they going tinkering around to that extent, I expect them to keep us in the loop.

How do you know pvp gear will be subpar, what makes you believe melded stats won't also take effect therefore removing the whole "we lose 4th stat argument" because if it does you can still get 5 stats out of your gear and i don't see how you would need more.
This isn't the usual Level sync and we have no reason to believe it will act the same.