Frontlines ilvl sync

[Tandy]

Well, I could also respond that your analogy doesn't work either because let's face it...in FFXIV the majority of your performance is based on doing a dance not just doing damage. I don't think anyone could argue that beating T5 is ultimately boiled down to "there's nothing but killing Twintania" or that you could beat Leviathan/Titan Extreme without knowing how to dodge. Even in PvE there are many "objectives" to winning besides just dps-ing. But even if it were different in PvE, let's also face the fact that it's unreasonable to assume that you could win a battleground without actually fighting another player in reality. People will be defending their objectives and from the time you engage them to the time one party wins for all intents and purposes it becomes a deathmatch. Sure, theoretically you could wind a BG without actually fighting another player but in 7 years of playing MMOs I haven't seen it yet.

It seems that you and I are at impasse, so I suppose we'll just agree to disagree. It's not like the Dev's will be taking into consideration either of our ideas anyway

I can at least see where your coming from, so its not like I dont understand totally, even if we wont change each others minds, we are at least seeing the "same things". But even Twin or Titan/Levi, dance or no dance...the fights not over till they die :P The dance is merely how you get to the objective, do it properly but dont kill the mob and you still lose. And your right about the pvp killing, I dont think I have ever won a battleground without killing at least one person, but its theoretically possible at least. The killing there to me is the dance from pve, just an obstacle in the way of the objective. No matter how much you do kill though, take no objective and you still lose.

And your right, what we say matters nothing to the dev's lol its all just a way to pass the time

[Shake0615]

IAnd your right, what we say matters nothing to the dev's lol its all just a way to pass the time

Ain't that the truth lol.

[Nalien]

It's not like the Dev's will be taking into consideration our comments anyway.

And your right, what we say matters nothing to the dev's lol its all just a way to pass the time

This makes me sad for its truth...

So far the developers haven't exactly handled PvP with the greatest level of aptitude when left to their own devices (at best they've been fairly slow at addressing issues), I'd rather they take points from both sides from these discussions and try and build a middle ground, than have a repeat of Wolves' Den when it first launched... Another reason I hate how SE handles content reveals (have done since XI), they tell us so close to release, so that if there is an issue with it, it's too late to really address it before release. If we'd known any details about Frontlines at literally any point in the three years we've been waiting for it, they could have molded it to better suit the community before release, rather than solely relying on feedback after release.

[Pibz]

The fact of the matter is that we will always be at an impasse with the PvE players because the majority of them feel that (to quote another poster) "FFXIV is a PvE game." Therefore most of them just consider PvP a diversion and they want to be able to freely come and go without consequence or disadvantage. But they don't want to grind the Wolves' Den for an advantage in PvP and damn it they don't want anyone else to have an advantage over them! Their Not a single one of them would claim that PvE should be "equal footing."

So, in your eyes, a true PvP ultimate goal shouldn't be about getting better at it but about getting gear, yeah that's some true PvP mindset.
PvP Should always ideally be about skill foremost and only very slight advantages based on progression.
Also, i'm tired of saying this Wolve's Den was never meant as a way to gear up for Frontlines.

Skill is all that should matter in pvp. Why do you need a pvp stat when it normalizes between two equally geared pvp players? As I said in the other thread, pvp stats are pointless. It's just there so people can go "lol I one shot the newb." It has no other purpose.

This. Again true PvP advantage should come from your skill in playing your class and your tactic/strategic skill everything else should be completely secondary to those. Any argument made in favor of gear being a major asset comparable to skill can only be viewed as ,as the quote above says basically, "Let me farm gear, so i can pwn those that don't have it".
Finally the only purpose gear should have is allowing people to create their own builds, with which iLvL sync does not interfere at all.

[Pibz]

ROFL MY posts are incoherent messes? LOOOOOOOOOL
It's pointless arguing with you, you come back on your own words consistently, i'm done.
Also i don't need to attack you, your own posts do enough damage to your points on their own.

[Shake0615]

So, in your eyes, a true PvP ultimate goal shouldn't be about getting better at it but about getting gear, yeah that's some true PvP mindset.
PvP Should always ideally be about skill foremost and only very slight advantages based on progression.
Also, i'm tired of saying this Wolve's Den was never meant as a way to gear up for Frontlines.

Look, "getting better at it" is intangible and not much of a reward in and of itself. No one downs T5 just to "get better at it" and no one farms Primals just to "get better at it." When we play a game we expect a tangible reward for our progress; we want something to show for our work. MMOs since their inception have offered progression based primarily on a gear treadmill. I challenge you to find me a single MMORPG ever released that did not offer gear as its principal reward for clearing content. PvP is part of an MMO and MMOs that choose to implement PvP almost unanimously have included PvP gear sets as part of their progression.

And I'm tired of saying this: Yoshida and the devs have pulled a 180 on what their plan for the Wolves' Den and Frontlines has been. Don't believe me? Read the following here, here and here.

You will notice the following:
1) The Wolves' Den was released as the "casual" PvP model and Frontlines were supposed to be the epic battles, the centerpiece of the PvP experience, not the first stepping stones into PvP.
2) Gear was intended to be a crucial part of the PvP system from the beginning. Changing that model 6 months later screws over the people who worked for it.
3) Nowhere does Yoshi-P ever make the statement that PvP should be about skill only. In every single interview he talks about progression through ranks and gear. For those of you who repeat ad nauseum that PvP should only be about skill and not gear, you clearly haven't been reading about this producer's vision for PvP over the course of development. FFXIV's PvP has never been about skill only.

Now, you tell me. Given the above, how could one be led to believe anything else but that Wolves' Den gear would be applicable to Frontlines? You may have me on a technicality that SE didn't publish anything in Patch 2.1's notes that said "Hai guise! Enjoy teh Wolves' Den but don't work 2 hard cuz u wont get 2 use your gear in Frontlines PvP! Plz look forward to it!" At least I haven't found that source yet. But just because they didn't technically state it in writing doesn't mean they aren't going against everything they've led the PvP community to believe.

That being said, I see only two ways forward from here that are fair:
1) Allow morale gear for all forms of PvP
2) Remove morale from the game entirely and exchange it for a usable stat on current PvP gear

No one here is arguing for an unfair advantage over other players. But since gear IS a part of this PvP system, we need to find a better, more equitable way of handling their stats so that no one (hardcore PvPer's, hardcore PvEer's or otherwise) are getting screwed.

[Shake0615]

If Yoshida wants to do away with Morale because it's unbalanced (and apparently impossible to adjust), then he should do so from Wolves' Den as well. After all it's unfair there too, right? So far though, he seems to want to leave it in Wolves' Den. Either it's unbalanced and needs to go, or it has a purpose and stays. Having it both ways is just inane, and if a community rep pops in and says they're removing it from Wolves' Den, I'll gladly shut up.

Agreed. There's no need to change the rules of play for what it is essentially the same thing. If morale in unfair, it needs to be removed entirely not just relegated to the least popular place.

[Nalien]

Agreed. There's no need to change the rules of play for what it is essentially the same thing. If morale in unfair, it needs to be removed entirely not just relegated to the least popular place.

Especially when that "other place" will effectively be a ghost town with Frontlines. Most people I know, at least, have only tolerated Wolves' Den because Frontlines was promised (edit: and when I say that, I mean the horrible implementation of Wolves' Den, not entirely the concept of it. If it was implemented better, we'd have enjoyed it more, which again is something I've been suggested between being insulted ad nauseum). After all, we'd been waiting for it for three years. Once it hits, Wolves' Den will lose a good chunk of its playerbase, unless they drastically overhaul it as well (which I do hope for).

Keeping something which is already there and altering it to entice players into Wolves' Den seems like a better idea to me, though. Certainly since it doesn't have the negative implication of going back on your word, like Yoshida seems to be doing already.

[Tandy]

Nailen, I understand what you want with enticing people to wolves den, but it needs to not involve frontlines. It needs to be an incentive within wolves den itself.

For the vast majority of people wanting objective based pvp, we would rather gnaw our foot off than do arena....FOR ANY REASON. Seriously, they could give me a golden chocobo that shit novus weapons on Sundays and I would rather poke my eye out than do arena. Morale gear not working and giving everyone base morale does the exact same thing just in opposite ways, and neither will force people into doing arena if they don't want too.

[Pibz]

snip

First of all please don't compare how pve progression should work vs PvP.
Also if progressing in skill is so intangible and not having gear progression is so needed in PvP, i guess that why all those multiplayer(PvP) games that aren't based on that at all are so successful right?
Moving on..

You do get something to show for your work, gear(even if it's just vanity in frontlines), ability upgrades and now mounts.
Also nice info , if it wasn't for the fact that it is info that was nearly 5 months old, in some cases, by the time the game even released let alone the time they even introduced wolve's den, and more than 1 year old than the time we're actually getting frontlines.
Don't expect info that is almost an year old on content that is yet far away, to aklways remain accurate.
I will concede on the "never meant" bit being wrong though but, more recent statements clearly say(Not even talking about E3 ones, earlier than that) that Frontlines would be the first step to get players into PvP, so that they might eventually, if interested, get into what they call the "real pvp"(wolve's den) i'm paraphrasing of course and can't be bothered to find the source but it is the most recent info, therefore what you should have expected.

Basically just because they didn't envision it at the early development stages doesn't meant they didn't realize later it would be better, in fact that's the way game systems should be developed as opposed to basing them completely on someone initial sketch idea.