NINJA and ROGUE confirmed

[Malakhim]

Nobody's telling you to stop wanting thief. Nobody is telling you to stop asking for thief. Hell, I WANT to play as Thief. That's pretty much my main go to in EVERY single Final Fantasy(including XI) and other RPG I play where it's an option. In FFXIV I will be playing as Rogue(and to go along with your perspective) I will be "maining" Ninja, because that's what is available(I also have a hard-on for Ninja, but that's besides the point).

What I AM saying is that demanding something blindly without really looking at the facts(of which there really are none at this moment) or respecting/trusting the devs to do something interesting and/or fun with an old idea is unfair. I'd say the same thing in the countless RDM or _insert job here_ threads.

Also a protip: Based on what you say about not appreciating the Duty Finder, I take it you're a fan of building a healthy, helpful, and friendly community. Antagonizing fellow forum posters with bullish tones won't do anything to help that.

[MartaDemireux]

Many of us arguing against THF are doing so on the grounds that a Thief job cannot play separate enough from a Ninja when branching off of the same class. This is in addition to the resistance against giving a DoW a possible unique material gain advantage.

Now personally, I would be just as adamant against NIN if THF were to be the job coming from Rogue due to the same argument of not needing multiple damage dealing jobs coming from the same class.

First: Ninja will be getting different weapon drops from primals than Rogue (Source). This is a clear indicator that Ninja will play differently and perhaps almost independently from Rogue. The other clear indicator is that Ninja will be using the Mudra system (Info on Mudra and Ninjutsu). From this we can see that Ninja will likely be an entirely different playstyle from Rogue from the start. One job can play exactly like its class and the other differently. ACN and SMN play the same but SCH is different. All the others jobs play exactly like their classes at the moment with BRD and WAR being the only ones to add notable mechanics which I think is why everyone automatically assumes Ninja will play just like Rogue but this doesn't have to be the case. Thief could play exactly like Rogue as long as the Mudra system is enough to differentiate Ninja. It's also possible to make Thief a tank which would play entirely differently as well (WAR was always more a DPS but is tank here afterall and SCH was usually more like a DPS, too). With the different weapons perhaps Rogue/Thief's drops will focus on DEX for parry chance or a damage modifier and Ninja's will focus on STR for damage or maybe add in a lot of INT for their Ninjutsu.

Second: Steal does not have to be a monetary gain but can instead be used as a Rogue/Thief gimmick (perhaps for enmity generation in the role of a tank (you hate people that steal from you)) that Ninja doesn't have access to or has limited access/use for it. Perhaps it will use a different main stat in its mechanism such as DEX while Ninja focuses on STR. We've been told Ninja will wear melee DPS gear (likely Monk's gear, same source as above primal weapons source) so this could easily free up Thief and/or Rogue to wear Bard's gear (which does noticeably affect evasion rates). If they're getting different drops from the primals it's pretty clear that they will be using different stats in some way.

[Jarinolde]

Considering EVERY OTHER PRIMAL WEAPON can be used by both the class and job respectively, I believe Yoshida meant that the dual daggers that drop from primals will be usable by both RGE and NIN. NIN will NOT have their own unique weapons that RGEs can't use. This is NOT like SCH (more on that below).

The Mudra system is more akin to WAR's Wrath system, which is why you are seeing this comparison a lot. It's not being compared to ACN/SMN > SCH because a CHANGE IN THE ROLE happens, this doesn't happen with WAR. That is why a PLAYSTYLE change happens, because half of your abilities as an ACN don't matter as a SCH! This won't be the case with RGE > NIN though as they are both DPS, therefore all speculation that THF will come and be the natural progression from RGE is wrong.

I will agree with you however of the possibility that the 2nd job (whatever it may be) could use DEX instead of STR, we already have the precedent from ACN/SMN and SCH to show that they're willing to do it that way.

[Reynhart]

You're aware that it's not tied to the job wether DEX or STR is the "main" stat ?

STR increase attack, while DEX increase ranged attack. Dual-blade ? Close combat, STR dependant.

[Mcshiggs]

You're aware that it's not tied to the job wether DEX or STR is the "main" stat ?

STR increase attack, while DEX increase ranged attack. Dual-blade ? Close combat, STR dependant.

They could easily put in that dex is the stat that increases attack power while dual wielding blades, they did it so that dex increased ranged damage. It all has to be programmed in if it is STR or anything else, so it wouldn't be that hard and just add to the tooltip when you hover over dexterity.

[Reynhart]

They could easily put in that dex is the stat that increases attack power while dual wielding blades, they did it so that dex increased ranged damage

Ranged damage, yes, not Bards damage. Dual wielding blades are still close range, like Monks.
It's not Diablo 3 where each class has an arbitrary stat.

Each stats has several increases and none of them are linked to a job. If a WHM wants to block more damage, he needs STR like everyone else.

[MartaDemireux]

PRIMAL WEAPON

"As for the special and Primal weapons, there will be rogue and ninja versions."

The fact he made "versions" plural is what makes the world of difference. "There will be rogue and ninja versions" is an entirely different statement from "There will be a rogue and ninja version." The first means that each will get its own weapon and the second means they will get one weapon and both use it. If he meant there would just be a twinblade (they're not daggers, the JP version clarifies this with calling Rogue a "Twinblade User" or "Dual-Sword User" (take your pick)) version, he could have just said that as well, "There will be twinblade primal and special weapons." And since he said an all-around term as "Special" it makes me wonder if Rogue will get a separate relic. Or perhaps that was a hint to Rogue getting a secret second job like ACN did. Without clarification we simply don't know.

I have yet to see Mudra compared to Wrath. It sounds to me that the Mudra system will be more all-encompassing of the player's time than Wrath, though. You have to take the time and possible GCD's to input different Mudra combinations. If they use GCD's we're talking at least 2. I'm guessing the Mudra abilities will appear on a pet-bar of sorts and will not originate from the Rogue abilities as there is little reason for a Rogue to have Mudras. But time will tell. They also said that Ninja's combat pace won't be faster than other jobs which people were hoping it would be which further discounts it being similar to Wrath (using attacks to build a resource).

As for half of ACN's abilities not mattering as a SCH, I think I went through and figured out there were only like 5-7 out of what, 17? 18? that go unused the majority of the time but still have application. THF could undergo a role change as well. It could be a tank or one of the new hybrid roles coming out eventually.

You're aware that it's not tied to the job wether DEX or STR is the "main" stat ?

But it's also true that each ability has an equation. This equation can be used with DEX instead of STR if they wish. Equipping a job also raises certain stats and decimates others. Equipping SCH gives your ACN a huge boost to MND and cuts INT. Equipping SMN gives your ACN a huge boost to INT and cuts MND. If they include abilities that are based on DEX then THF could wear DEX gear. Tomahawk used to scale off of DEX because it is a ranged attack but as MRD/WAR gets no DEX on their gear they scrapped the DEX from it even though it's a ranged attack. Same goes for Shield Lob I believe. So if they make Rogue and Thief wear DEX gear they can bring back that process.

Equipping THF could give the ROG a big DEX/STR increase and NIN could give a big INT/STR increase. They did refer to the ninjutsu abilities as spells after all. Attack spells focus on INT. This way both can use the standard attacks based on STR and then their own mechanics based on DEX or INT respectively.

Ranged damage, yes, not Bards damage.

Like above, it is still somewhat associated to the skills and therefor the jobs. WAR and PLD both have ranged attacks affected by STR (not DEX which "governs" ranged attacks) so you can't even fully rely on the tool-tips in game. DEX also deals in parry and block rates as well and unproven but generally accepted to enhance evasion (many BRD's notice an increased evasion rate when compared to melee DPS). Parrying and evasion are very THF-like. They could add another reaction to a THF tanking stance such as counterattacking which THF has had in the series as well and base it on DEX.

[Mcshiggs]

Ranged damage, yes, not Bards damage. Dual wielding blades are still close range, like Monks.
It's not Diablo 3 where each class has an arbitrary stat.

Each stats has several increases and none of them are linked to a job. If a WHM wants to block more damage, he needs STR like everyone else.

When it comes to stats and which ones increases what types of damage, they can do whatever they want, because it is their game, and dual blades will be a different weapon class. They don't have progammed in melee damage is calculated by str by weapon damage by whatever else, they do it by weapon class. Have you noticed when you are on bard and you are in melee damage you punch the enemy, guess what dex raises that so it is that dex raises bard damage and not just their ranged attacks.

[Reynhart]

Like above, it is still somewhat associated to the skills and therefor the jobs.

I don't recall Feint doing total crap damage when used on my Bard, even if the skill should be STR based, like you said.

[MartaDemireux]

I don't recall Feint doing total crap damage when used on my Bard, even if the skill should be STR based, like you said.

Well, test and math it out to prove it and get back to me with your findings

Cross-class attacks may have their own equations to use whatever stat your weapon uses to calculate damage. Physical attack abilities as a whole may just use Attack Power now. If that's the case then STR and DEX will affect it based on the weapon you use which means your original assessment of your job not determining your main stat is flawed. Your job is based on your class and your class is defined by the weapon it uses which is then classified by if it's a STR or a DEX weapon. DoM are exceptions to this rule (as their weapons are STR based) and are solely classified by which magic type (attack/INT or healing/MND) their skills are using which then further supports the job demanding what stats you use. If an ability uses attack power it will use whatever stat that weapon type uses to increase attack power. A CNJ using Mercy Stroke should see a much lower damage rating due to their AP being related to STR which they have little of (assuming physical attack skills only use AP).

Supporting abilities or non-damaging mechanics could still use DEX as a base and Thief's variant of twinblades could stack on the DEX while Ninja's variant could stack on the INT for their ninjutsu (classified as spells which is intriguing).

On that note, it'd be interesting to see how ninjutsu is calculated. If they use Attack Power then they'll be using STR. If they use Attack Magic Potency then they'll be using INT. Seeing as NIN is said to be using STR gear its AMP will be low which would make the Ninjutsu pretty low. If they use STR/AP and still call them spells then it goes against in-game properties just like WAR/PLD's ranged attacks which will be irksome. They also have stated that Ninjutsu will be used to enhance the player or enfeeble the enemy and didn't mention a damage mechanic associated to them so who knows at this point.