Protesting Frontlines

[Koltik]

It's simple. Frontlines requires a lot of players, something PvP does not have. If they let Morale work in Frontlines, then non-pvpers wouldn't touch it with a 10-foot pole and frontlines would be a dud.

As a retired Rank 30 PvPer, I approve and encourage this choice.

[Nalien]

It's simple. Frontlines requires a lot of players, something PvP does not have. If they let Morale work in Frontlines, then non-pvpers wouldn't touch it with a 10-foot pole and frontlines would be a dud.

Why would non-PvPers be touching Frontlines in the first place? The majority of them seem to think PvP has no place in a Final Fantasy game anyway, I doubt they'll be trying it out regardless; most of the ones I came across in General Discussion were frankly completely ignorant of PvP and were only agreeing with no Morale because others were.

I really don't get it, doing away with Morale makes it a level playing field? No it doesn't. Doing away with Morale just does away with one of PvPs key sense of progression; obtaining new PvP gear. With out a stat differentiating the two, PvP and PvE gear are identical. You still have players that are better than others, and not because of their personal skill. You have players who've earned more AP and thus fire off their PvP skills more often and for greater effect, as well as boosting stats. You have players who are different races (highest VIT to lowest VIT was an 8 point difference I think). Even with an i80 cap you'll probably end up seeing players with different gear, if they set it to i90 instead like they've talked about, then the person who buys and melds crafted gear has the advantage.

The only issue Morale brings is when it is a significantly higher amount of Morale. Like I've suggested, they can solve that issue with a buff. How will they be solving AP and racial differences? They can solve gear differences by just making a standard set of gear you aim to obtain when doing Frontlines. I'd say i70 PvP gear would fit that slot nicely, worst case they just need to make a few adjustments to Wolf Marks to ensure that isn't such a daunting task. Honestly, i70 PvP gear should just be handed to players as quickly as possible, then the difference in Morale is laughable. Giving people without any PvP gear a buff that provides Morale is a great way to completely remove any issues before they obtain the gear, and it's hardly a difficult thing to do.

Oh, and before anyone bothers, the AP difference will not be solved by the queuing system. You can already group a Rank 40 with a Rank 1 to balance their Ranks out and get them into matches faster; Frontlines has a lot more freedom in that regard. Being 24v24v24 there is a lot more room to balance out a teams Rank, there is a lot of potential for higher Ranks to find their way in and have an advantage because of it.

Personally, I don't mind the concept of people having an advantage, because I know (or hope) the teams will be balanced. If Team Maelstrom has a few high Ranks, so will Team Twin Adder, and Team Immortal Flames. That's also why I don't mind the concept of Morale playing a part, seeing as Morale gear is pretty much tied to your Rank, with the only advantage being "I won more rounds, so I got the gear while being a lower Rank than you".

[Ransu]

I really don't get it, doing away with Morale makes it a level playing field? No it doesn't.

Doing away with Morale just does away with one of PvPs key sense of progression; obtaining new PvP gear.

1.) Yes it does. It removes the gear gap, leaving only skill being the deciding factor, which is how pvp SHOULD be.

2.) I used to feel that way in swtor. But really pvp should never have any sort of gear progression. A ranking system? Sure. Vanity rewards? Sure. But a pure gear advantage? No, that's just dumb. Gear gaps nullify skill. In swtor there was a trick with low level pvp weapons where there was a refund timer of 2 hours so you'd just buy the weapons and before the timer went out you'd traded them back in and the timer paused when you logged out. The commendation cap was 2750. You needed about 15k comms to get full gear and about 20k to min max.

I used to level alts strictly in pvp from 50-55 saving up those low level pvp weapons so I could be fully geared by 55. Why? Because if I didn't and just jumped into pvp, I could be 10x better than the other player, but because he's geared I have zero chance of killing him regardless of skill simply because I'd only hit him for 3k and he'd hit me (assuming I had 0 expertise) for 12k easily. That is just silly to me.

For the longest time I didn't care because it was so easy to get gear, but after awhile I thought to myself "why is this even a thing?" In pve, gear progression makes complete sense. But in a competitive environment such as pvp? It's stupid.

[Nalien]

1.) Yes it does. It removes the gear gap, leaving only skill being the deciding factor, which is how pvp SHOULD be.

And the gap between Rank/AP, and a (much) lesser extent, racial stats?

Again, they can just close the gear gap with a buff. Everyone is capped to i80 already (if they raise that to i90 like they suggested, thats a big mistake that I wont even entertain at this point), then the difference in Morale is only a critical factor if you have none. A difference between i70 Morale and a capped i80 Morale is much more manageable, just throw in a buff that provides Morale up to a certain point, so it remains accessible while still keeping a progression system.

I agree though, a ranking system (like what we have for GC Seals) would be great. Did Yoshida actually give a reason as to why we don't have that? I get the feeling it'll be the same reasoning we got for Fresh Meat being a thing. If they intend to take out Morale though, they damn sure better have some serious adjustments planned. Wolves' Den simply isn't going to be a thing as it currently stands, except a haven for win traders to obtain their i100 vanity gear; rather than a haven for PvPers.

(or if I have missed it, I apologize and please let me know where the post is)

I mentioned it literally four posts up, and I think somewhere in another thread a few times.

[Menriq]

I mentioned it literally four posts up, and I think somewhere in another thread a few times.

If you are referring to post #115, that is just saying the same thing I am. What I am asking is that those who want Morale removed to make it a level playing field haven't made an argument (that I saw, which is what I wanted to know where the post was) about how removing PvP gear but leaving the AP is a level playing field. Sorry if I didn't get across clearer with my original post.

[Nalien]

If you are referring to post #115, that is just saying the same thing I am. What I am asking is that those who want Morale removed to make it a level playing field haven't made an argument (that I saw, which is what I wanted to know where the post was) about how removing PvP gear but leaving the AP is a level playing field. Sorry if I didn't get across clearer with my original post.

Ah, OK. Yeah, everyone has been skipping over that point whenever I bring it up (when they're not just resorting to out right insults).

I guess there is a case for not having Morale because it'll make matters worse, but you can balance Morale out by giving people a Morale buff. You can't really do the same with AP, unless they rework the system so you earn AP in battle (that would actually be interesting, though might not work with face paced combat).

Personally, I'd rather SE focus on not making it a level playing field for everyone, but instead making it a balanced one. Mix new PvPers with old ones and let there actually be a difference; every team has a balanced amount of people who are completely new, and people who have high Morale and high AP. If your teams new players get owned by your enemies high Morale players, it's either because they strayed off like a fool, or your teams high Morale players were derping.

ilvl cap and no PvP gear is the superior of the two. I put 6 months into my PvP gear. Still rather front lines be fun, over me melting under geared players.

And if the under geared players were given a buff that gives them a Morale boost? Then you'd have PvE players with, lets say, an equivalent to i65 Morale. PvP players in i70. PvP players in i90/100 capped down to i80. Would the difference in Morale there be enough to allow you to crush the under geared still?

And again, take into consideration the spread of players in a 24v24v24 match. You might be able to crush under geared players, but the PvPers on your opponents side can do the same to yours. I'll admit, that's something that can very quickly turn sour for new players, but it's still something to consider that nobody seems to be. Everyone is looking at Frontlines in terms of Wolves' Den mechanics.

[Kantei]

Ahh at first we dealt with them by asking our higher ranked healers exclude using skills that the other healer didn't. Work OK.....but not the best.

We would also ask melee not to use fetterward versus new healers. Made it impossible for them to learn.

Then we stopped dealing with AP differences. It matters way less than you think if everyone is geared the same.

But, that is also due to how I handle match making. All in all though, AP discrepancies didn't matter a week into our event, both teams even on wins/losses if everyone wasn't completely new to PvP.

[Kantei]

If you are referring to post #115, that is just saying the same thing I am. What I am asking is that those who want Morale removed to make it a level playing field haven't made an argument (that I saw, which is what I wanted to know where the post was) about how removing PvP gear but leaving the AP is a level playing field. Sorry if I didn't get across clearer with my original post.

Roughly 1/5th of my matches fought were with ilvl cap, out of 3k.

Running my event, without it. Roughly helped me get 20-30 people into PvP.

Runningy event with an ilvl cap, attracted roughly 150 people to my link shell in 3 weeks. Had very, very good feedback from all involved except those who wanted to use their gear as a crutch for the reasons they were losing.

[Menriq]

Roughly 1/5th of my matches fought were with ilvl cap, out of 3k.

Running my event, without it. Roughly helped me get 20-30 people into PvP.

Runningy event with an ilvl cap, attracted roughly 150 people to my link shell in 3 weeks. Had very, very good feedback from all involved except those who wanted to use their gear as a crutch for the reasons they were losing.

See my previous post. I am asking under the assumption the morale is removed, but even if it wasn't, it was covered under all other variables being equal. So the only difference is the AP points. Sorry if I'm missing it, but I don't see how you are accounting for this discrepancy when making the teams.