Do you think the devs intended multi-flare blm?

[Akujin]

Once the blms are geared 2 is redundant, they compete with each other for aoe damage when a single geared blm and a bard can wipe out any pack in a single rotation. Any more than sufficient aoe to kill everything before the blm has to go umbral is wasted dps, and foes plus holy from the whm can be enough while the bard and blm with correct cd and song usage will deliver far better single target rather than 2 blm.

8:40 soldiery runs last night with this setup.

Nicely done. Now do it without your WHM's holy spam + Foe for the aoe kills. Not being condescending, truly curious to how the time will scale.

[Woggers]

I'm sure they wanted us to utilize the double/triple flair rotations during development. What snuck through was the double flair casting in UI. What I could picture them doing is adjusting Flare to where we can only cast it while in AFIII.

[Marcusow86]

Double/triple Flare hits like a truck and you can chain them but after convert and swiftcast were used, there are no longer any point to chain them further than 3. The high casting time of flare further ensures that.

My usual flare rotation goes like this:-

1. Fire III, Fire II till >1k mana, Flare, convert, fire, swiftcast Flare, transpose, Fire III, Fire II, Flare (without mana pots)
2. Fire III, Fire II till >1k mana, Flare, convert, fire, swiftcast Flare, pots, Flare

The reason why BLM have lower DPS compare to other DPS class is because most of the fight in end game consist of only one boss or low counter of adds where true beauty of BLM (King of AOE) cannot be displayed. I believe this is solely a design flaw, in-order to counter this, they have no choice but to tweak BLM instead of the content, so BLM can deal better DPS in end game when they are in a single boss fight.

The remaining question would be if BLM were buffed in their single target DPS, will SE nerf their AOE capability?

[Ooshima]

Nicely done. Now do it without your WHM's holy spam + Foe for the aoe kills. Not being condescending, truly curious to how the time will scale.

Not too much of a difference, still under 10mins (9mins plus). I was running with him as a BRD last week, but our healer was a SCH.

[tymora]

They patched that Transpose > Flare + Flare cycle a while back if I remember correctly.

[SarcasmMisser]

^they absolutely did not, I was doing it last night on t7 trash for fun.

Nicely done. Now do it without your WHM's holy spam + Foe for the aoe kills. Not being condescending, truly curious to how the time will scale.

Probably poorly, everyone has to pull their weight. The foes is what makes a single rotation possible, and the holy tips them over. If your point is that it's the other jobs that makes aoe fast, you're absolutely right, they have really good synergy, not just with foes but how their cd usage doesn't overlap. While blms burn CDs during trash the bard pops them all on bosses with foes and does amazing burst while buffing the blm.

If you also want to know about scaling I think my whole point is that bard and blm scales better with gear, while double blm with gear is just overkill on trash.

[SeraviEdalborez]

They patched that Transpose > Flare + Flare cycle a while back if I remember correctly.

They patched one way to do it, yes.

[Illya]

-no crits, no procs, no burst, welcome to RNG

our numbers are big, sure, but that doesn't mean anything.
in comparison to the other dds blm is just too weak in single target dmg with big flaws (looking at the wasted firestarter procs). even on a puppet fight mnk, drg, smn outdamages the blm easily (bard might be on parse with blm). consider that puppet fights are stationary fights and turreting should be our strenght (where we cannot shine either), so when it's a movement heavy fight, we can hole up in a corner and wave from the back.
don't get me wrong, I do agree that melee dds should do more dps than ranged dds if they can maintain a good uptime and I don't want the blm dps to go over the top, but I don't get it why blm should do less than a summoner on a stationary fight or close to equal dmg as a bard.

I was beating up the level 50 dummies in Whitebrim the last couple days trying to decide which DPS class I wanted to bring to Turn 8. I main a WAR so this whole DPS hierarchy thing is foreign to me. I tested out BRD, DRG, and BLM. All 3 classes were pretty similarly geared out, i90 mostly from farmed Allagan drops and Levi EX weapons. All 3 classes were geared with a focus on ACC, which probably means some other secondary stat wasn't being optimized but you need a lot of ACC to not miss The Avatar. Anyways, I had various other people with me during these tests, people who main DRG, BRD, and BLM and they verified my numbers. Each test run went for about 5 minutes of continuously bashing the dummy senseless.

It didn't take me that much testing, with me beating the dummy up and my DPS friends beating it up, to determine that assuming I could grok the rotation DRG would output the most DPS. This should surprise no one. If I couldn't run a good DRG, then I should bring my BRD. What surprised everyone there was that there was no situation where I could justify bringing my BLM, it was losing by a wide margin to my DRG in damage output and at best it was close to even with my BRD, but when I wasn't getting crits and procs it was even falling behind the BRD in damage output. And the BLM brought no group utility like the BRD did, and it wasn't anywhere near the hypothetical peak uptime damage output of the DRG.

I enjoy playing my BLM in Bray SRs though. It feels good to melt a whole pack of trash with a few Flares.

[Gormogon]

snip

1.) I never mentioned anything about sacrificing spell speed and I never mentioned anything about favoring crit. From my point of view 490 feels like the butter zone for spell speed how stats changed from ilvl 90 to ilvl 110 is something I wont bother with.
2.) Never did I say they were the best DPS job. I'm saying that their design has a balance and a flaw. Yet people are focusing too much on the flaw. Every other DPS job has a flaw not just BLM.

snip

Yeah it's all situational.

As for Brayflox though when 2.2 hit and people were speedrunnig it for myth. There was 2 setups that shined the most when done right.

WAR, BLM, BRD, SCH (BRD popped FoE + BV for the Black Mages AoE)
WAR, BLM, BLM, SCH (1 blm mage does 3 fire 2 and 2 flares, the other blm does 2 fire 2's and 3 flares)

Warrior's Overpower spam was a great help.
Black Mages AoE is consistent and reliable
Bard's FoE+BV to support Black Mages and their own AoE spam was helpful
Scholar for the speed buffs

Yet Scholar and Warrior could alternate.

Once I got my left side all weathered it doesn't matter who comes as the 2nd dps as long as they place their part with AoE and the tank can survive long enough for me to triple flare and quad if need be. I've had no issues with groups suggesting to try and speed run in DF when a Monk and Dragoon appear in the party.

snip

1.) Consistent because our rotation doesn't change. If you didn't understand that say so instead of putting words in my mouth.
2.) 2 procs because 1 is thundercloud the other is firestarter.
3.) My fault for not being more specific. In a party (in which we get an Int buff) with food 3 Flares gives enough chances for Raging Strikes so one to three Flares, depending on luck, to potentially crit for 2500-3200 each as long as the BLM's ilvls is between 90-96(counting Zenith-Animus weapon) which does not count FoE.
4.) Never did I say that burst design guarantees a constant up time on procs

Don't know why you are being overly dramatic with all of your points instead of being rational. Guess I was expecting too much of a civilized discussion.

snip

Totally.

DRG and BLM are on the same page both are burst dps roles yet DRG has a guaranteed crit every minute. While BLM's have the initial 4 Fire I's gets boosted through AF3 then after that it's every 5 Fire I's.
MNK, SMN, and BRD are more constant.

They all bring their own utility, damage, and flaws to a party.

As a BLM utility wise I got eye for an eye, virus, and slow/heavy from lethargy. Yet if there's an arcanist job in the mist then my Virus is kind of moot and lethargy only helps in very few situations.

[HitoYuudai]

1.) Consistent because our rotation doesn't change. If you didn't understand that say so instead of putting words in my mouth.
2.) 2 procs because 1 is thundercloud the other is firestarter.
3.) My fault for not being more specific. In a party (in which we get an Int buff) with food 3 Flares gives enough chances for Raging Strikes so one to three Flares, depending on luck, to potentially crit for 2500-3200 each as long as the BLM's ilvls is between 90-96(counting Zenith-Animus weapon) which does not count FoE.
4.) Never did I say that burst design guarantees a constant up time on procs

Don't know why you are being overly dramatic with all of your points instead of being rational. Guess I was expecting too much of a civilized discussion.

1.) which still isn't "a constant 1000-1200 damage"
2.) "then gets 2 procs than can crit for 1500-1800 without relying on buffs" (to quote yourself) -> again for you: every firestarter proc followed directly after a firestarter proc gets wasted, since you're neither waiting after each fire I to see if you get a proc, nor are you breaking your fire I spell you're already casting again, since this would lead to a dps loss. in addition to that counting procs as consistent is just wrong. sometimes you get 3 thundercloud procs in a row with 3 or 4 firestarter procs, sometimes you get no thundercloud proc for ages and very few firestarters.
3.) I crit my flares for 32xx with 110 weapon and overall ilvl100, WITH food, WITH raging strikes AND Foe in a party. so stop talking bs
4.) neither did I that you said so. you said, that we're a burst class. I said that if we're unlucky and get neither crits, nor procs, there is no real burst by blm. we CAN burst if we get some procs, but we don't have any control over it, calling this a "burst design" which is just based on RNG.... meh, not really

Don't know why you don't read my words carefully and try to understand what I say instead of giving nonsense in return.
I cleared every existing content as a blm (yup, even cleared t9 already), I know how it feels to play a blackmage, I know the strength he has in some ways but I also know the flaws and can rank the blm as a dd in comparison to other dds quite well. you obviously can't and I feel sorry for that, but I guess you're just stubbornly sitting there ignoring facts that experienced people are trying to hand to you. guess I was expecting too much of a civilized discussion.