Crafting Needs a Place in Endgame Raiding

[Akiva_Ninazu]

How is providing an alternative gear source further gating anything off? If anything it's adding more players to the mix. This is not BiS stuff we're talking here.. heck, even knowing that fully melded crafted gear is -better- that DL in a lot of cases, groups don't require the crafted gear. You're throwing up an argument about something that isn't going to happen.

Because the game should be about the skill in running *all* content, not the skill in hitting the "Make HQ Shiny" button in front of repair vendor or the skill in farming endlessly to pay the all-but-guaranteed-to-be-obscene price demands of someone who does.

This argument boils down to crafters not wanting to have to put the time in to earn next-to-BiS gear in order to challenge end-game. You don't want to run the content, you just want to spam the crafting buttons to shortcut yourself into that gear and then get paid to do it thereafter. Lazy.

[Sunarie]

You will be able to craft i90 gear. Which is the equivalent of Myth or BC. That's not good enough? You really think you should be able to craft 100 gear? Which will be the ilvl of Soldiery tome gear? How can you not see the problem with that? So, I can grind for two weeks for 1 piece of soldiery gear or I can RMT my way into a full set of i100 crafted, meld it and be done with everything but BC 6-9! Seriously.... it has nothing to do with you "having gil". It's the fact that you don't seem to care if you're ability to make gil will completely destroy the game.

Or, you can RMT and buy runs through things to get the gear too (you get tomes for those runs -plus- whatever items). Seriously, using RMT as an excuse doesn't work. You can mind-numblingly run dungeons with little to no effort to get soldiery gear too (I assure you the dungeons aren't really going to take effort and wipes and work once they've been out for a while). Horizontal progression doesn't destroy the game. At all. RMTers might, but that hardly has to do with crafting and items.

Having the equivalent of myth now is basically the same as having the equivalent of Philo.. it's useless. Crafting (for the very large part) in this game is useless. Heck, even the high end foods for culinary (the 2-star stuff) is currently useless. I also, just for the record, don't think ANY tome gear should be BiS. People like you don't seem to have a problem with that though. It's fine to put very little effort into getting tomes and get a BiS item, but when someone puts effort into earning gil to legitimately buy an item they somehow don't deserve it (and shame on the crafter for selling it!). There are MMOs that have crafting with gear that is very near to BiS.. and those games aren't broken or destroyed by that gear.

You're the one throwing around some scenario where people have to buy the stuff, or pretending RMTers don't already get gear for gil as is (even though the Coil, HM, and EX runs I've seen being sold beg to differ). The case you're trying to make, doesn't work. Having multiple gear choices is good.

Because the game should be about the skill in running *all* content, not the skill in hitting the "Make HQ Shiny" button in front of repair vendor or the skill in farming endlessly to pay the all-but-guaranteed-to-be-obscene price demands of someone who does.

This argument boils down to crafters not wanting to have to put the time in to earn next-to-BiS gear in order to challenge end-game. You don't want to run the content, you just want to spam the crafting buttons to shortcut yourself into that gear and then get paid to do it thereafter. Lazy.

I want more gear choices. I don't actually make money on the market. If you were to look at my crafting sets, they aren't melded... heck most of them aren't even all HQ. I leveled crafting to help people with gear for alts they were leveling. Now that everyone is done with that, my crafter side has been resigned to making food for raids. Getting materia up to craft 2-star gear for guildies just isn't worth it when they can easily get full DL in a week and be on to myth. The same is going to be true for the myth equivalent stuff. Having done Coil (with the exception of Turn 5), and having nearly BiS gear on my PLD (I'm missing 3 pieces from the list) I can say that getting dark light is FAR easier and requires way less work and attention than maxing out stats for materia on my gear (and who knows how much that would cost, or what the new needed stats would be).. heck, even getting myth pieces is far easier than the work I would need to put in to have the ability to craft stuff that's only marginally better (and only when penta-melded) than Darklight.

I want choices, I want stuff to be useful and not just sit there. I'm not actually out to make money. I would actually call all the folks who want tome gear to be BiS the lazy ones.

[Wolf_Gang]

No thanks I don't want to buy my gear. Nor do I want other people to buy their way to BiS.

Earn it.

[Speeral]

Because the game should be about the skill in running *all* content, not the skill in hitting the "Make HQ Shiny" button in front of repair vendor or the skill in farming endlessly to pay the all-but-guaranteed to be obscene price demands of someone who does.

This argument boils down to crafters not wanting to have to put the time in to earn next-to-BiS gear in order to challenge end-game. You don't want to run the content, you just want to spam the crafting buttons to shortcut yourself into that gear and then get paid to do it thereafter. Lazy.

No no one asked for that... you are making that up. Plus this is is an online game with content constantly coming out why does it matter anyways? Being able to craft gear that is decent to help you be more efficient in a dungeon is not bad. In DL you could do turns 1-4 with relative ease, people been doing that since October or sooner tbh. So how does that fit into your argument anyways... I80 and I90 gear just made that farming more efficient the only thing that slowed people down were the resets anyways. I seriously do not see your point.

[Wolf_Gang]

Every single MMO ever created that had an endgame crafting reliance became detrimental to both the game and the economy.

Crafters in MMOs are like Wallstreet businessmen, they don't care if they completely destroy the game, they just want to make money.

[Akiva_Ninazu]

No no one asked for that... you are making that up. Plus this is is an online game with content constantly coming out why does it matter anyways? Being able to craft gear that is decent to help you be more efficient in a dungeon is not bad. In DL you could do turns 1-4 with relative ease, people been doing that since October or sooner tbh. So how does that fit into your argument anyways... I80 and I90 gear just made that farming more efficient the only thing that slowed people down were the resets anyways. I seriously do not see your point.

Oh, so if BIS was 110 and you were able to craft 100 and meld it, you're saying you wouldn't? You'd use tome items instead?

Riiiiiggghht. You'd buy the mats, regardless of price, and be wearing full crafted i100 by the end of the week.

[Versiroth]

Snip, snipity

Where have I ever said that tome gear should be BiS? I'm completely fine with entry level/grindable tome gear/end game raid. I just don't think the tome grind should be skipable. What you suggest would put everyone at one level below BiS just by RMTing some gil. And the fact that people buy primal runs only proves that fact further. Not sure why you and the other person try to act like RMT isn't a factor here. It's really the primary factor.

Also, I think it's hilarious that some of you act like you don't want these changes due to your own selfishness and greed, lol. The fact is, that's the only reason you want to be able to make i100 gear. Because you know it would sell like crazy because it would allow people to skip months of grinding. Stop kidding yourself.

[Susanoh]

No one is saying free. I'm saying crafters expecting hundreds of thousands of dollars for crafted gear is obscene. There are plenty of price points for these items that do not involve anyone getting the shaft.

As for the tome farmers, no, it's not. The market for those was absolutely out of control at some points, so of course prices were going to sky rocket, but, again, that happened because to many crafters were paying those prices to begin with. Instead of not paying hyper-inflated prices and farming mats until those rates came back under control, far to many just paid it and adjusted their prices accordingly (and then got butt-hurt when no one wanted to pay those rates).

What many fail to realize is that just because something COSTS 400K to make doesn't mean the end result is WORTH 400K. If you were that upset by the tome gouging, you could have farmed your own, listed for 100K next to those people, and actually made *more* money per item than they were.

I'm not upset by tome gouging. Supply and demand work themselves out to be a specific price and that's the price that will be paid. If people don't pay it, the price eventually lowers, which is what happened.

I don't have a problem with any of the prices of any market items, because the market will work itself out regardless of what happens. People compete with each other, and the price raises or lowers. I just feel as though I should point out that this same logic applies to everyone, not just one specific group. Crafters aren't any more greedy/lazy than the tome farmers or the players wanting to get their hands on crafted gear. The market prices aren't determined just by crafters, but by everyone involved (material farmers, crafters, and those buying crafted items).

[Akiva_Ninazu]

The market prices aren't determined just by crafters, but by everyone involved (material farmers, crafters, and those buying crafted items).

That's only true to a point. In any supply/production chain, the last stop before the end-user has the greatest impact on price and, in many cases, the greatest amount of discretion if they are willing to take the steps necessary to ensure relative competitive freedom.

[Sunarie]

snip

Because designing a game with huge restrictions because of maybe RMT is bad? I'm not asking tome gear to be skippable. No one is. Just like people don't skip DL right now and get crafted stuff. I'm saying your scenario isn't going to happen.