Crafting Needs a Place in Endgame Raiding

[Teykos]

THIS would result in "enchanted gear or bust" WoW-style. Because that's exactly what you described.

I'd rather have crafted bind-on-pickup gear equivalent to tome gear (and BiS or almost with full forbidden meld) with mats dropping in the top content (T6-9 drops), and being untradable. Horizontal progression. Coil drops should be on par or slightly better than those, so no one "has to level a crafter", but it does give an option for those who are.

That only really works if a consignment system like how you can Request Meld from a crafter exists. Otherwise the raider has to double as the crafter as well.

[Versiroth]

1) You keep arguing that crafters just want to get rich. Others keep pointing out that the crafting system in this game what is broken. I find this amusing.

2) As 2.2 is not here, my point was more directed to 2.1, where crafted gear in general was not used, the largest reason was "Why buy/make it when the cost of doing so is greatly higher than simply spamming AK and getting Darklight. Who knows how things will change in 2.2. I highly doubt it will change much. Same problem exists; why bother going through the effort of making crafted gear when myth gear is easier to get and better.

3) Yes, buying my way to the top in 10+ weeks is still buying my way to the top. There is literally no difference.

It's not broken, you're just not happy that you can't make the best gear in the game. That's a design choice by SE, nothing broken about it at all. And I saw plenty of people pre 2.1 with crafted gear. Mainly because at the time, it would take spamming WP about 50 times to get a full set of DL. Post 2.1, sure, Crafted gear is useless because we're all swimming in tomes. Depending on how easy myth tomes are to come by in 2.2, crafted gear may be a good alternative again.

Also, a difference of 10 weeks is a pretty huge. It's baffling that you're still arguing this point. Come on... a few hours and 10 weeks is "literally" no different? Please....


EDIT: Personally, I hope were all swimming in Myth tomes post 2.2.

[SchalaZeal]

Otherwise the raider has to double as the crafter as well.

No he hasn't. It's called horizontal for a reason: it can be ignored.

I mean that the i110 coil drops and i115 coil weapons will be equivalent or better, especially if you can pick your secondary stats.

[Sunarie]

That only really works if a consignment system like how you can Request Meld from a crafter exists. Otherwise the raider has to double as the crafter as well.

I think a consignment type system for mats specific to a raid in order to craft a piece of gear would actually be fairly neat (and has the potential to make crafting useful)... I do understand they would probably have to make a new system for that though. The rest of this post isn't really directed at you specifically.. just quoted cause I thought that was a cool idea

I really don't get the RMT argument. Even post 2.2.. aren't philo tomes becoming myth tomes, plus the cap being removed? Crafters can make ilvl 90 gear, sure.. but when it costs an arm and a leg to fully enchant those so that they're (very minorly) better than myth, it's just not worth it compared to the time it takes to get the tome equiv... or the cost really. With how easy roulette made it to get tomes (and I am assuming the story roulette will now give myth instead of philo), and dungeons giving the highest tome currency (which means you don't really have to wait long to upgrade to new tome gear), I don't see how anyone thinks crafted items are gonna make a difference. Even with the 2-star pieces incredibly cheap now it's not uncommon for only one piece to sell every few days on my server. That's not me selling them, that's just looking at the history tab for -any- that have sold.

Oh, and people buy runs through stuff all the time. I still see people buying their way (with gil) to their relic, or to their EX mode clears to get that weapon.. And I've seen people carried through Coil for money. Maybe a person running Coil 10x doesn't get their items dropping (though really for them to get zero items 10x through they have to be severely unlucky).. but those 10 Coil runs surely got them a healthy chunk of myth to upgrade their gear (and lets not forget that a lot of myth pieces -are- currently BiS), and will get them a healthy chunk of the new tomes. RMTers are going to find a way to buy their way to the top regardless. Designing literally everything around trying to stop RMT is just bad, and it's a bad excuse to throw crafting into oblivion.

I have also not seen a single crafter say "I want to craft all BiS stuff!".. I have seen some of us go "I wouldn't mind being able to craft a single item that was BiS" usually along with "it can be bind on pickup" so that it can't actually be sold. I, personally, think tome gear shouldn't be BiS, and that crafting gear should be equal to it... the useful tomes, not the tomes that you get a crap ton of, have no cap, and are quickly outpaced.

[TheUltimate3]

-snip-

1) Another argument you keep making but no one else is. Making the best gear is not the problem. Of course nobody expects to make the best gear when you have something like coil that exists.

2) However despite point #1, making something that is harder to obtain (when all factors are taken into account) worse than something that is easier (yes, tier 1 tomes are easy to get) to obtain, is the problem. That is broken by definition.

3) And chances are high that we will be swimming in as much myth tomes as we currently are in philo. Which means, still that the ease of getting myth items greatly out scales the difficulty to get (again when all factors are taken into account) crafted gear. And that is broken.

[Zourin]

The best system:

Bosses drop Recipes and Critical Ingredients for top level gear. RNG loot system is antequated, allow crafters become the pivot point for what item for what class is produced. With weekly dungeon/loot/token caps, production rate is controlled, and nothing 'leaks' to public markets until everyone in a group is 'geared'.

Crafters have a raison d'etre, raiders get their gear, nobody in a static gets RNG-screwed, and the only ones complaining are those who've managed to piss off every crafter on their server, are spoiled by instant-gratification systems, or only PUG endgame content.

[OrganizationXIll]

I don't know about low level crafting these days but end-game crafting IS fine. Anyone saying otherwise simply doesn't research the market enough or try hard enough. From 2.0 to 2.1 I crafted and sold a few hundred one star recipes (mostly HQ Crafter Gear) and made 6 mil. From 2.1 until now I crafted at least 2,000 two star equipment pieces and made 50 mil. Forty items up for sale non-stop. 20-30 pieces selling every day. Some days items sold so fast that I simply couldn't keep up which had me going in loops for 8 hours straight.

There was a massive demand for end game crafted gear non-stop for three months. It's finally died down now due to the mention of i90 Crafted Gear but the crafter economy is the complete opposite of dead on Excalibur. I didn't even have a legacy character head start either.

This is not the case on Goblin. It took 4 days to sell one i70 ring with me checking the price every hour or so for 16+ hours a day. I, because of undercutting and lack of sales, sold my Astral Ring HQ with Savage Aim III, Heaven's Eye III and Savage Might II for 51K. This was in November. Now? We have maybe one sale a week per item if we are lucky. Nobody wants gear that will be replaced in 3 weeks, 2 weeks now and 3 hours come Thursday. Crafting needs to have a set place in endgame. Maybe not the best, but not the bottom of the barrel of the respectable gear.

[Versiroth]

Honestly, I'm still waiting on an idea from a crafter for a way to integrate crafting into end game that wouldn't ruin end game. Having crafting gear be better than the top tome gear would not work, as it would take away SE's biggest time sink. Having Materia be a part of end game would do more harm to the community than good. People would be forced to meld each slot or they'd be excluded from groups.

So, if you think crafting should have a place in end game (besides making entry level sets), then how about giving ideas that would actually be helpful to the game and it's community? Making crafters rich doesn't count.

[Speeral]

[QUOTE=Versiroth;1974384]snip [QUOTE]

I've not been excluded from any groups and I am not BiS... not sure what you are trying to say... The game as it is except for two fights doesn't reguire best of best gear... And best of best gear only makes you more efficient, and that's assuming you know what you're doing... So first answer who is being excluded from anything in this game as casual friendly as it already is, with all the instant gratification one can really get in a day...

[Versiroth]

[QUOTE=Speeral;1974398][QUOTE=Versiroth;1974384]snip

I've not been excluded from any groups and I am not BiS... not sure what you are trying to say... The game as it is except for two fights doesn't reguire best of best gear... And best of best gear only makes you more efficient, and that's assuming you know what you're doing... So first answer who is being excluded from anything in this game as casual friendly as it already is, with all the instant gratification one can really get in a day...

You're kidding... right? Most people in PF groups already ask for people to out level the duty by upwards of 10 ilvls. Heck, I see Titan HM groups asking for ilvl 75+ all the time. You really think that a turn 9 group won't care if you haven't melded all of your Materia slots?

As someone who played WOW for over 5 years, trust me... all adding things like that to end game does is give elitists one more reason to exclude people from content.