Men in Dresses

[Kaoru_Nagisa]

Yet again. No-one said it was wrong, stop saying this.

STOP READING THIS AS AN ATTACK, Jesus wept, it's like you're not reading it.

It's quite ironic you're calling others small-minded, yet you can't see logical facts placed before you.

I see "facts", but whether they're logical or not remains to be seen. Thing is, yes, societal norms do change. But if everyone is too bloody scared to even attempt to change something, NOTHING will be done.

WoW already added dresses, and that's one of the biggest MMOs in the industry, and has been for years. I heard no uproar about them making males able to wear dresses, like, none. I only heard about them doing that in this thread, that's how little of a problem it was (and frankly I think the west is far less accepting/quiet about things like that than Japan is. Japan may not think it's right or normal either, but at least they're mostly quiet about it). SE would likely have just as little uproar about it as WoW did, if they'd actually stop being so terrified of every single homophobic/transphobic/bigoted/internalized misogyny/whatever who posts a negative response to suggestions like these on their forums.

Also, no matter how much someone isn't trans/homophobic, being uncomfortable with a man wearing a dress is still a product of internalized bigotry. They were taught to be like this due to cultural and societal norms around them, whether from the poison that is most of the media, or from friends, or from family, it happened. I'm not saying it's wrong they think that due to growing up in an oppressive and close-minded environment like that (the one at fault in that situation is the people or things that caused them to grow up thinking things like men in dresses isn't "normal"), but if they are continuously educated on why and how it's perfectly normal and shouldn't be something looked upon with revulsion or ridicule, and they continue to do so, then that is being a close-minded bigot. People like that don't WANT to change, they don't WANT to be accepting of people dressing however they please, they want everyone to conform to their societal norms and they will constantly do anything in their power to oppose those societal norms changing.

If I were in drag, I wouldn't walk into the face of someone who's clearly uncomfortable with my dress and criticize their opinions. While it's true that they may be closed-minded or even a little insecure, that's more a product of their upbringing and cultural norms--hardly things in their sphere of influence. It's no more rude to say "I'm uncomfortable with XXX" than it is to be comfortable with it.

You're absolutely right that they have internalized prejudices and trans-/homophobic values. Again, unless you want to blame them for every life event that's shaped their personality--that's your right, I guess...

My point is, you're not helping the argument by preaching condescendingly to all of the anti-dress folks as if they were insensitive and/or clueless. They're not stating their opinions to offend you.

I never said people should go up and rub their man-in-a-dressness all over someone's face. But how are we supposed to expect people to become comfortable with it if they're never exposed to it because it "makes them uncomfortable"? There are ways to still be a man in a dress and be around people who are uncomfortable with this fact, without being overbearing about it. This argument is like saying "I shouldn't be openly gay in public because it makes people uncomfortable to see it". How is that any more fair to those people than to the people uncomfortable with seeing it?

And honestly, if someone sounds to me as though they are not even willing to understand WHY something is normal and acceptable, and just continue to be close-minded, I will talk to them as condescendingly as I want. They obviously aren't going to change no matter how nice I am about it, so why should I give them the courtesy? Give what you take. Shioban may not be one of those types, but there are some people in this thread who are, and I am not gonna waste time trying to calmly explain to them why it shouldn't be something they look at with revulsion, because they obviously aren't going to hear the argument. They're too set in their bigoted close-mindedness.

So... are you telling me that everyone who disagrees with you is "rude"?. Since your opinion is making me feel uncomfortable, does that means you're "rude"? I'm not homophobic/bigoted/whatever and STILL i don't feel comfortable with males wearing dresses because "it doesn't seem natural". Even if you disagree with Shioban, he said really good points.

I'm saying that telling people they can't have something, that they can't have EQUALITY of all bloody things, is rude. And despite you saying you aren't homophobic/transphobic/bigoted, you still have internalized bigotry from societal norms taught to you since you were a baby. That isn't your fault, but you have to realize that just because you were taught that way, doesn't mean it's right or fair to others. The mindset of "it's not natural" is the same thing that's preventing gay men and women from getting married to each other, and stuff like that is not right and it is not something society should accept as "normal". A man wearing a dress or two people of the same sex wanting to get married should be just as normal as a woman wearing pants and a hetero couple getting married. They are the same exact things, just for some reason society decided that one is acceptable and one is not.