Men in Dresses

[Shioban]

It does, however, say that they're not only incredibly close minded but also very uncomfortable with their sexuality.

Sorry, but the only reason I see for anyone to be uncomfortable with men being in dresses is they have internalized transphobic/homophobic societal norms.

Yet again. No-one said it was wrong, stop saying this.

STOP READING THIS AS AN ATTACK, Jesus wept, it's like you're not reading it.

It's quite ironic you're calling others small-minded, yet you can't see logical facts placed before you.



Fact: Societies have norms. These norms change over time, our modern society has changed drastically over the past 50 years even more so over the past 100 years.
Men wearing womens clothes wasn't one of them.


Some people are homo/transphobic yes. Not everyone who disagrees with adding this fits under this bill.

Homophobic? Transphobic? No. Clearly I have to state the plain here to prove my point. If I were homophobic, I'd be fearing myself.
I personally would find it un-easy, all the people I've asked so far also agreed, not because "Dem gays is bad!" but because it's just not a normal thing to see, therefore it's confusing and unsettling.

In my entire life and the lives of many others, it's just not a normal occurance. Radical changes or differences will always make people feel uneasy, especially out of context. This doesn't make them out to be homo/transphobic. Stop trying to push this point, it makes no sense.

If a man walks a octopus down a street on a leash people are going to feel un-easy, its not a normal things to see.


Gay Rights
Womens Rights
Electricity
Jeans
Women Wearing Trousers

A TON of different things that took a very very long time to become socially acceptable. It's just a basic fact that men wearing dresses isn't on this list as of yet.

I wasn't trying to "oppress" your desires, I simply pointed out why they wouldn't do it, but as with any of these subjects it HAS to be about oppression and not logic.

There is literally nothing more I could say to make this more clear or to the point.

This is not a personal attack, this is not an opinion, this is fact.

Am I saying, men can't wear dresses? No. (You didn't read any of my posts if you didn't pick up on this already)
Am I saying, it won't be added because it's something people aren't used to yet? Yes.
Am I saying, people aren't bigoted or homophobic? No, everyone is different.
Am I saying, you're a fool if you think everyone against this "Hates the LGBTQ's!" Yes, you are a fool if you're so small minded.

By the way, finally someone talked about "Gay marriage". If Naoki Yoshida thinks thats controversial (and i guess gay marriage is more accepted/natural nowadays), i'm pretty sure this topic will be approached the same way

This is Square Enix's EXACT approach to these situations. If its controversial (which it is, there's no denying this, or the topic wouldn't be so heated) they will apporach is very carefully, and consider the damage it could do the company as a whole if it were approach incorrectly.

As a game about to be launched in China, homosexual orientated considerations will be hitting a big barrier as Square Enix will need to consider how the Chineese will react to it. (Which is going to be a HUGE market)

As reasonable adults, this is a video game not everything we know that not everything can be added to appease the entire population, I know this all too well.
As developers they had to consider what's best for their game as well as their customers.

[FreakinZMartin]

SE remove this thread please, it's getting out of control.

[Mychael]

SE remove this thread please, it's getting out of control.

So grab your popcorn.

[Odett]

You can only use upbringing and culture to defend close-mindedness up to a certain point, but if you have the resources to educate yourself and still think that your intolerability trumps the needs of others, then you are wrong.

[Synapse]

Female should be able to have facial hair... you know equality and stuff.

I think armor variety is already lacking, now we gonna have everyone look the same.

[Dashuto]

Boy guys I sure am loving talking about this here online VIDEO GAME and its new content!

Scuse me while I check this thread....


.

.

.

.

[FreakinZMartin]

Boy guys I sure am loving talking about this here online VIDEO GAME and its new content!

Scuse me while I check this thread....


.

.

.

.

Hilarous lol :P

[Mhaeric]

Yet again. No-one said it was wrong, stop saying this.

You should re-read the first few posts.

Well for me this has always been plain wrong,

As i said previously in the thread, to me, men wearing female clothing is plain wrong and makes me feel uncomfortable every time i see a guy doing in the street or TV.

----

Some people don't feel comfortable with seeing men in something thats clearly a womens dresses, this DOES NOT mean they're homophobic or transphobic.

Anyone can be uncomfortable with something as much as they like. They have every right to chalk it up as weird/disgusting/unnatural and then move on. These thoughts, however, are indeed homophobic and/or transphobic by nature despite them having every right to think them. This applies in the same way as someone who thinks that different races are inferior in some way is racist even if they never act on or express that racism externally. Homophobia and transphobia aren't given more lee-way in their definition than other forms of discrimination.

Of course, telling someone that they can't do something that is part of their identity because it makes someone uncomfortable is where it becomes homophobic or transphobic behaviour. 'It makes me or the majority uncomfortable' and 'I or the majority don't like it' are not good enough reasons to deny someone else the ability to be themselves in any situation they choose. This is the very reason that rights are not - or at least should not be - voted on.

[Kaoru_Nagisa]

Yet again. No-one said it was wrong, stop saying this.

STOP READING THIS AS AN ATTACK, Jesus wept, it's like you're not reading it.

It's quite ironic you're calling others small-minded, yet you can't see logical facts placed before you.

I see "facts", but whether they're logical or not remains to be seen. Thing is, yes, societal norms do change. But if everyone is too bloody scared to even attempt to change something, NOTHING will be done.

WoW already added dresses, and that's one of the biggest MMOs in the industry, and has been for years. I heard no uproar about them making males able to wear dresses, like, none. I only heard about them doing that in this thread, that's how little of a problem it was (and frankly I think the west is far less accepting/quiet about things like that than Japan is. Japan may not think it's right or normal either, but at least they're mostly quiet about it). SE would likely have just as little uproar about it as WoW did, if they'd actually stop being so terrified of every single homophobic/transphobic/bigoted/internalized misogyny/whatever who posts a negative response to suggestions like these on their forums.

Also, no matter how much someone isn't trans/homophobic, being uncomfortable with a man wearing a dress is still a product of internalized bigotry. They were taught to be like this due to cultural and societal norms around them, whether from the poison that is most of the media, or from friends, or from family, it happened. I'm not saying it's wrong they think that due to growing up in an oppressive and close-minded environment like that (the one at fault in that situation is the people or things that caused them to grow up thinking things like men in dresses isn't "normal"), but if they are continuously educated on why and how it's perfectly normal and shouldn't be something looked upon with revulsion or ridicule, and they continue to do so, then that is being a close-minded bigot. People like that don't WANT to change, they don't WANT to be accepting of people dressing however they please, they want everyone to conform to their societal norms and they will constantly do anything in their power to oppose those societal norms changing.

If I were in drag, I wouldn't walk into the face of someone who's clearly uncomfortable with my dress and criticize their opinions. While it's true that they may be closed-minded or even a little insecure, that's more a product of their upbringing and cultural norms--hardly things in their sphere of influence. It's no more rude to say "I'm uncomfortable with XXX" than it is to be comfortable with it.

You're absolutely right that they have internalized prejudices and trans-/homophobic values. Again, unless you want to blame them for every life event that's shaped their personality--that's your right, I guess...

My point is, you're not helping the argument by preaching condescendingly to all of the anti-dress folks as if they were insensitive and/or clueless. They're not stating their opinions to offend you.

I never said people should go up and rub their man-in-a-dressness all over someone's face. But how are we supposed to expect people to become comfortable with it if they're never exposed to it because it "makes them uncomfortable"? There are ways to still be a man in a dress and be around people who are uncomfortable with this fact, without being overbearing about it. This argument is like saying "I shouldn't be openly gay in public because it makes people uncomfortable to see it". How is that any more fair to those people than to the people uncomfortable with seeing it?

And honestly, if someone sounds to me as though they are not even willing to understand WHY something is normal and acceptable, and just continue to be close-minded, I will talk to them as condescendingly as I want. They obviously aren't going to change no matter how nice I am about it, so why should I give them the courtesy? Give what you take. Shioban may not be one of those types, but there are some people in this thread who are, and I am not gonna waste time trying to calmly explain to them why it shouldn't be something they look at with revulsion, because they obviously aren't going to hear the argument. They're too set in their bigoted close-mindedness.

So... are you telling me that everyone who disagrees with you is "rude"?. Since your opinion is making me feel uncomfortable, does that means you're "rude"? I'm not homophobic/bigoted/whatever and STILL i don't feel comfortable with males wearing dresses because "it doesn't seem natural". Even if you disagree with Shioban, he said really good points.

I'm saying that telling people they can't have something, that they can't have EQUALITY of all bloody things, is rude. And despite you saying you aren't homophobic/transphobic/bigoted, you still have internalized bigotry from societal norms taught to you since you were a baby. That isn't your fault, but you have to realize that just because you were taught that way, doesn't mean it's right or fair to others. The mindset of "it's not natural" is the same thing that's preventing gay men and women from getting married to each other, and stuff like that is not right and it is not something society should accept as "normal". A man wearing a dress or two people of the same sex wanting to get married should be just as normal as a woman wearing pants and a hetero couple getting married. They are the same exact things, just for some reason society decided that one is acceptable and one is not.

[Dashuto]

Of course, telling someone that they can't do something that is part of their identity because it makes someone uncomfortable is where it becomes homophobic or transphobic behaviour. 'It makes me or the majority uncomfortable' and 'I or the majority don't like it' are not good enough reasons to deny someone else the ability to be themselves in any situation they choose. This is the very reason that rights are not - or at least should not be - voted on.

As a neutral party I would like to inform you, personal identity is not a right. And the way you go tossing it around is extremely volatile and one sided, including to the cause you are trying to support.
You have essentially at this point descended to saying you are correct because "you are". Because "it is the way of things". While at the same time, the other camp of this thread has been doing the same by claiming "men don't wear dresses" and so forth "its just the way of things".

What needs to be realized by the people constantly labeling each other and nagging about in this thread for an online VIDEO GAME. Is that you can't label each other sides as "wrong". They simply aren't right or wrong. They're all opinions. As difficult as it can be to believe, someone not accepting someone elses beliefs doesn't make them a _____phobe. It is an opinion or a preference. The moment you begin to believe you are on the side of justice/right instead of just containing another opinion, is the moment you begin hurting everything you want to represent.


Those who want dresses aren't wrong.
Those who don't like it aren't wrong.
Disliking each other for it is not wrong.
Harassing one another for it is.


So where does the real subject end up? Square Enix. It is the company with the "issue" at hand and simply put we all know what will be the end of it. The gay marriage debate was something they were too cautious to address and you can be fairly certain that trans anything will fall into the same category.


And for bloody sake people, someone is not a homophobe just because they do not agree with homosexuality. That is not what a homophobe is, stop labeling every random naysayer or uncomfortable person that. Talk about burning bridges. I see some in here attempting to wield it like a knife or insult: all its doing is revealing your own desperation/bias.

With that said I support equal marriage and anything people feel brings equality.