Men in Dresses

[Xandim]

It's sad but while the people saying "NO" overweights the people saying "YES" I don't see it hapenning... Its too bad cause I'd love to wear some of the new dresses, and I don't wanna make a female char just for that (mainly beucase I don't relate anything AT ALL to a woman xD)

I think the main reason players(both male and female) prefer a male role model is because males are better at physical roles(its in men's genetic). I dont even know many female gamers that prefer female main characters.

I only liked metroid because i thought Samus was a man!

FFXIII imo sucked, not sure if it was the female lead(i used fang as my main character), or the linearity of the game or lack of things to do... tho i loved the combat system.

Yup, sadly people still see man as the leading, strong, "leave everything to me" kinda person and woman are still seen as agile, supportive, "where is a man to come and rescue me?" kinda person, even tho times have changed significantly. Myself personally I like all types of leaders. Males (well cause I like men too ) and females (specially those that dont fit the "i need rescue" kinda type, like Samus and Lara Croft).

[Gramul]

Do keep in mind that genetic and chemical disposition means diddly squat if you don't take advantage of it. Playing videogames and chatting on message boards all day won't make anyone stronger, male or female. Ya gotta get out there and work it.

[LineageRazor]

Women are the minority in this, but they can crime victim all they like.

Taken from Wikipediea:

According to a study conducted by the Entertainment Software Association in 2012, "Forty-seven percent of all game players are women. In fact, women over the age of 18 represent a significantly greater portion of the game-playing population (30 percent) than boys age 17 or younger (18 percent)."[30][31]

Entertainment Software Association’s 2013 study found that 45% of game players are female, 2% decrease from last year’s figures.[32] However, women 18 years or older represent 31% of the game-playing population, one percent higher than last year, while boys 17 years and younger represent 19% of the game-playing population.[32] Women over 18 are one of the fastest growing demographics in the gaming industry[33] and the percentage of females in gaming has continued to grow considering only 38% of the gaming population was female in 2006.[34]

While granted the Wiki is not necessarily a reliable source of info, I see no reason to doubt it in this case, as it certainly matches my real-life experience. 45% does still constitue a minority, but hardly an insignificant minority - certainly nothing to indicate that gaming is a "man's world".

Any catering the industry does towards men at the expense of women is a holdover from the old days and financially irresponsible - unless they are exploiting niche male markets. Throwing in hetero-male-oriented eye candy might help to sell the game, but if you don't give the ladies a treat as well, that's nearly half the gaming population you're ignoring.

In the case of Final Fantasy XIII, the biggest complaint I hear about the game has nothing to do with the female lead, but rather the repetitve, linear gameplay.

[Seif]

I gotta say that this thread restores some of my faith in gamers. Not all of you are backwoods bigots and for that working in this industry seems a tiny bit less bleak. And for that I'm very grateful

Keep up that attitude and I'm sure the future will be brighter to those to whom this thread matters the most.

[Shioban]

Holy crap this thread has gotten nuts, 17 pages in a few hours.

Social Justic Warriors in full defence mode.

The answer really is simple.

It's technically possible, but there are other considerations to take into account.
In the end it's the developers choice.

WoW already added dresses, and that's one of the biggest MMOs in the industry, and has been for years. I heard no uproar about them making males able to wear dresses, like, none.

It wasn't a deep thought of "Yes...yes...we're breaking the boundaries of gender identity and stereotyping here."
More likely than not it was "lol, I put the dress texture on the male models" "LOL, PUT IT IN THE FINAL BUILD".

You didn't hear an uproar because there wouldn't be one. It's not something so radical that people would be rioting in the streets.
As I've said before "Mountains out of Molehills" here, people are taking this as TOO big a thing from what people have said in this thread so far.

Not to mention reeling this out into out of context and un-related gargon. (IE, Phobias/Social-Nuances/Opinions/Stereotypes)

The only reason I can see for the developers avoiding it is because they'll simply think "Oh, but men don't wear dresses like that." and then move onto the next thing.
It really is as simple as that, not "What gender specific boundaries and limitations are we creating here by limiting players to gender specific clothing?"

I could be wrong, but the evidence so far suggests otherwise. For a very busy development team considerations like these don't seem to be a big priority.

But who knows, maybe in the future i'll get to wear a samba-dress and do cartwheels wearing a fruit-hat on Christmas Eve down the streets of Ishguard.
Only time will tell.

I gotta say that this thread restores some of my faith in gamers. Not all of you are backwoods bigots and for that working in this industry seems a tiny bit less bleak. And for that I'm very grateful

Keep up that attitude and I'm sure the future will be brighter to those to whom this thread matters the most.

As a developer these sort of things just don't come up in the planning stages often, I've never encountered it much as a huge complaint or consideration.
I think "neglecting" to add an addition so that men wear a Boudice Corset dress isn't exactly a "Bleak Mark" on the history of video games development.

Not everyone here is Bigoted just because they don't share the same opinion as you. Not every single person who disagreed in this thread did so out of malicious hatred, it's just something they'd rather not have added to this game, specifically.

NOTHING is stopping you from wearing a dress in real life, no-one is telling you "Men can't wear dresses".
What some people are saying, is that in terms of this particular video games development, it's very unlikely.

NOT that it's never going to happen, just that it's (to re-emphasise) very unlikely.

Technically it's possible, it'll just require a lot of extra work to re-mesh, re-toplogise, re-texture, re-bake, re-rig/weight and test, so if they haven't made a model for it now it'll only be in future content you'll be seeing something like this. The FFXIV development team aren't fond of going back and adjusting finalised content.

We'll find out when and if there's a response to the thread in the future.

[Seif]

As a developer these sort of things just don't come up .

This is a complete lie. I've dealt with gender issues in the planning on THREE different occassions just during last year alone! The only reason they do not come up in your company because there's no-one there speaking up about it.

It's not only the gender issue. Diversity in general just doesn't happen if there's no one making it happen. This is why I feel like it's my responsibility not just as a dev but as a human being to see that games are not just for the white straight heterosexual males.

[Shioban]

Gee still sure seems like you have double standards after all that talk. Thanks for making it even more obvious. So unless your argument comes with a clear -women should ONLY wear skirts and skirts only! I'll just disregard it as hypocritical ramble that it is.

I really feel sorry for people like you who go through this life with so much hate in your heart.

That's the sort of attitude people are trying to avoid in this thread.
You're simply coming across as aggressive and over-sensitive.

I'm not hating on anyone, I don't hate trans-gendered people, I enver said that. stop trying to assume the worst of people just because they don't agree with you. Just because I don't want men to wear that type of dress in FFXIV particularly does NOT make me trans-phobic. That's simply my opinion.

However, we're not here for my opinion. I'm pointing out why it's UNLIKELY to be added.



The "My point is more important, you're just being mean" attitude, no matter what anyone says.
It's borderline childish.

I said it CAN be added. Just that it's NOT LIKELY.
STOP. MAKING. IT. A. PERSONAL. ATTACK. Nothing here is a personal attack. I will say it again.
Anything I have said it based on fact. It's not a normal occurrence for men to wear dresses, therefore it's unlikely to be added.
NOTHING IS STOPPING IT BEING ADDED JUST THAT IT IS UNLIKELY.

I can't make it any more bold or clear, you're not being oppressed, or repressed or slapping down. I am providing my side of the argument as is anyone else. The only thing you're doing is making yourself to look out like an over-sensitive fool.

But you had to make yourself out to be a right eejit by rolling in the un-necessary "homophobia", "bigoted", "Hypocritical ramble"

Hehe. Someone needs a history lesson. Let's take a trip back, shall we say, 100 years or so?

Haha, WHAT.

Oh you're serious.

AHAHAHAHAHAHA. WHAT.

[sarcasm]

Teehee xoxoxo.

Someone, CLEARLY didn't read anything I'd written. Teehhee *giggles*, *flutters eyelashes*.

Well *smacks lips*, like, um.

I totally said this thing right. Were *flicks hair* tee-hee. Like the game is set in a Renissance Era. Teehee.

[/sarcasm]

You're kidding right?

Ever taken a book off a shelf. Come on, really.
100 years ago, men were not wearing dresses. Jesus wept.
More-so to the fact that the early-Renaissance era was 13th-14th Century, therefore you're off by around 500+ years there dear.

My great-grandfather was not cultivating land in a laced-corset-dress.
I can assure you the bankers, post-masters, flaxers were not wearing womens dresses either.

Don't be stupid.

This is a complete lie. I've dealt with gender issues in the planning on THREE different occassions just during last year alone! The only reason they do not come up in your company because there's no-one there speaking up about it.

It's not only the gender issue. Diversity in general just doesn't happen if there's no one making it happen. This is why I feel like it's my responsibility not just as a dev but as a human being to see that games are not just for the white straight heterosexual males.

No-one was speaking up about it, because it wasn't a major issue, as one of the members is actually transgendered who has NEVER once complained thinking "Oh wait, we need to have this and this and this for gender equality in this game!". Because it has no place there, it's not nessecary, it has no bearing or relation to the game IN THE SLIGHTEST.

The bigotries, phobias and other complaints you've noted simply just don't matter in a game as much. At the end of the day the developers do their best to bring the content that they can, they can't appeal to everyone. And all I ever suggested was that this is something they'd very easily ignore.

Your personal 'responsibilities' will differ from that of others, yes. Every 'company' is different. But with a company as large as SE with a short amount of time to develop content, voicing the small minorities isn't a big concern.

Stop making mountains out of mole-hills thinking everyone is attacking your integrity because they disagreed with something you wanted, and or pointed out why it wouldn't happen.

The world does NOT revolve around your ever want and desire, THAT is how things work.

"This game doesn't do any fan-service for the gay communtiy"

Sure it doesn't. I only just spent the past 30 minutes emoting half-naked with a Roegadyn in the middle of Mor Dhona in a swimsuit for s***s and giggles.




And to answer your ridiculous attempts in the past to try and pin me as trans/homophobic, I clearly have to address this to drum this into your head.

I don't like saying this. I don't like beating my own drum and yelling it from a roof-top, because it's no-one else's business. But I'm gay and no-one finds out unless they ask, and they get an honest answer.

A friend just only found out through this post that I was. That should say more than I ever would need to about this entire subject. Less about making a fuss and more about finding an appropriate way to make other people understand.
People are much more accepting and understanding when you're not aggressive, pushy or 'in-your-face'.

I shouldn't even HAVE to tell you this, or provide pictures or explain, YOU shouldn't be so insecure in thinking that everyone is trying to attack your integrity as a person. Declining and providing evidence as to why men probably won't wear dresses in an MMO, isn't an attack on trans-gendered people or 'Shunning them', it's being considerate for others.

You can say "We'll they're not being considerate of trans people", well yes. But at the same time, it's not going to affect just them, it's going to affect everyone else in the game. So stop making it out as if adding this isn't going to cause problems, because it will. Guaranteed.



I don't make any decision people make out to be a personal attack, because I can understand why they would avoid these subjects.
They're still to this day very much taboo and will be for a very very very long time.

YOU ARE A MINORITY. As are many other people with many other wants and needs, this does NOT mean that anyone has to appeal/address that fact.

On the flip-side, this doesn't mean that the option is off the table. There is always a change they'll do it. And I've said this MULTIPLE times, but you don't read the dam paragraphs I type.
THIS CAN BE ADDED, AND IF THEY WANT TO ADD IT THEY WILL. I ONLY POINTED OUT THE FLAWS IN THAT LOGIC.

I don't feel any form of indignation or animosity because the game doesn't appeal to the minority of gay/trans/whatever people there are in the world.

[Naunet]

So stop making it out as if adding this isn't going to cause problems, because it will. Guaranteed.

What problems do you foresee? A few extremists blowing their top because a guy can wear a dress (even though they already can)? Does Blizzard experience problems because guys in WoW can wear wedding dresses and slinky Valentines dresses and whatnot? No, I've never once heard anyone upset over that. I honestly can't think of any significant problem that would happen whatsoever. It sounds more like you're arguing against this just to be arguing against it.

The same kind of problems that arise from a few extremists blowing their top because a guy can't wear a dress, I suppose.

You forgot the part where it already happens and no one made a fuss about it.

[WrenDark]

Epic of wall of text what needed to be said!

This is what is needed to be said good sir. +100 like if I could.

[Azurymber]

I don't understand arguments like "Some people are uncomfortable with men in dresses so there should be no men in dresses"
I'm sure some people are uncomfortable with people in pants. Should we ban pants?
Maybe some people are uncomfortable with the colour red? Time to ban all red in FFXIV?

This is a Japanese game... One of Japan's biggest entertainment industries is "visual kei" where guys are crossdressed as Renaissance princesses. There are like 100+ gender-bending animes and mangas, many of which are/were insanely popular in japan (e.g. Ranma).

So the argument that something should be kept out of a game because a few people find it uncomfortable and weird just comes off as kind of ridiculous.
It won't affect gameplay, it's not going to scar a bunch of people for life, etc.

Saying it's unlikely is fine
Arguing that you don't think people should have MORE CHOICE in a game is just a veiled way of saying you aren't comfortable with it