Too much dancing

[HailZenberg]

I agree with the OP, (being an EQ player I reread the Vox strat with pleasure)

It's not just end game raid encounters, but the gameplay that has changed with some good and some bad:

- Mostly soloable content, good because you don't always have time to look for a group, but bad because you don't need others and have little interaction with other players.
- Simplified group content, with only 3 roles, auto party finder. Good as a time saver, but it removes the need to have a good reputation, and a lot of the social and tactical aspects.
- Very little downtime, good for many, but 'some' downtime favours socialising.
- No fear of death makes the game less rewarding and less immersive.
- No public dungeons, the drama of shared dungeons was epic but the atmosphere and immersion were unique!

All of this contributed to the genre gaining popularity. But there is room today for a more 'niche' MMO that will cater for a more 'EQ1' like experience, sans the huge time sinks it involved.

[Viridiana]

Vox strategy from EQ (http://eqpathfinders.guildportal.com...icID=7708076):

Sorry, but I'm not really a fan of any battle where the strategy for my portion is "Come in at 50%, press 1 until boss dies."

[LalaRu]

Simply put: too many encounters are extremely heavily focused on moving out of damage.

Simple answer: encounters focused on keep in place and pressing 111111121111121111114 are helluva much more boring.

[Simaril]

Sorry, but I'm not really a fan of any battle where the strategy for my portion is "Come in at 50%, press 1 until boss dies."

Simple answer: encounters focused on keep in place and pressing 111111121111121111114 are helluva much more boring.

Part of what you're missing there, is that it really, really, really sucked if you wiped, and it took a lot of time and effort and socialization to put a raid together.
In titan HM some groups just auto attack for phase 1 until LB bar is half full... similar concept...

Now you que up in DF, you don't even need to say hello, you could literally turn your chat window off, and if you wipe you just try again 10 seconds later. This wonderful conveniece has come at the cost of the need to actually find decent people, follow precise instructions, and build relationships.

And again, I'm really not sure I understand why you want to play a dancing game??? Yes, the game needs some interesting mechanics... but not the same one over and over and over again. So while standing and pushing a button weren't hard, getting it set up was hard, and execution HAD TO BE perfect. Also, trash was a major issue. Trash could respawn anytime, so you almost needed a group to handle trash that continued to respawn, while the main party dealt with the boss... one of the next bosses actually ran away... Again, I'm ot saying I want to go back and play MMOs from 1999, but I am saying they were challanging, engaging, and fun... while newer games have removed old challanges to replace them with dancing.

There was another boss in a later x-pac that during a certain phase if anyone used any magic spell on the boss, it full cured... which caused many many wipes so yes; NOT hitting a button can be challanging too. And finding reliable people amd the experience entirely more do-able, and enjoyable.

[Trashy]

Part of what you're missing there, is that it really, really, really sucked if you wiped, and it took a lot of time and effort and socialization to put a raid together.

Now you que up in DF, you don't even need to say hello, you could literally turn your chat window off, and if you wipe you just try again 10 seconds later. This wonderful conveniece has come at the cost of the need to actually find decent people, follow precise instructions, and build relationships.

That's exactly it. I don't want the challenge to be in putting up with BS like that. That's organizational stuff, and it's not fun. If I wanted to spend time trying to find competent people, get them to follow instructions, and build relationships, I'd spend more time at work. When I game, I want to play the game, not prepare to play it.

If FFXIV is a game about dancing, fine. I'd much rather play a dancing game than a game about organizing a dance party.

There was another boss in a later x-pac that during a certain phase if anyone used any magic spell on the boss, it full cured... which caused many many wipes so yes; NOT hitting a button can be challanging too. And finding reliable people amd the experience entirely more do-able, and enjoyable.

That's not challenging, it's stupid. It doesn't take any sort of skill to not use a spell on the boss. From your description of EQ bosses, it sounds like a good 50+% of the roles could be done with a basic script.

[Simaril]

That's not challenging, it's stupid. It doesn't take any sort of skill to not use a spell on the boss. From your description of EQ bosses, it sounds like a good 50+% of the roles could be done with a basic script.

I think I actually agree with you on this point. The big difference is... in EQ and other early games with raids... you had one shot at executing a realtively easy script that had to be done precisely, not the inifinte attempts that the new model affords.

[Sibyll]

Part of what you're missing there, is that it really, really, really sucked if you wiped, and it took a lot of time and effort and socialization to put a raid together.

Now you que up in DF, you don't even need to say hello, you could literally turn your chat window off, and if you wipe you just try again 10 seconds later. This wonderful conveniece has come at the cost of the need to actually find decent people, follow precise instructions, and build relationships.

Once again, I fail to see what is "challenging, engaging, and fun" about just standing and waiting for half a fight and then spamming the same button for the other half, or being patient during a phase and resisting the urge to do anything.

What you described about Duty Finder is absolutely correct and true for every cross server group finder. No one cares about building relationships in that because nine times out of ten you won't be with anyone from your own server. It's an inherent flaw for convenience. And this is perfectly fine because Party Finder exists.

Also, wiping in Duty Finder may not be an issue for trivial content, but wiping repeatedly on Ultima HM and Extreme Primals makes you appreciate the value of a server group formed in party finder.

It really sounds like you'd describe anything more than standing still as a dancing simulator and hitting anything more than a single button as guitar hero.

I think I actually agree with you on this point. The big difference is... in EQ and other early games with raids... you had one shot at executing a realtively easy script that had to be done precisely, not the inifinte attempts that the new model affords.

I'd like to see a system where wiping is more heavily punished. I find that people are more willing to run into a brick wall for 30+ mins wiping than to actually take a moment to think if what they are doing is the best approach. I'll agree with you on this.

[Simaril]

EQ raiding: You're at bat in game 7 of the world series, it's the bottom of the 9th with three runners on down by 3. (One meaningful attempt, that took a lot of effort to get to).
FFXIV raiding: Batting practice, with a pitching machine that shoots in a choreographed series of different directions with infinte balls. (Learn the sequence so you can stand in the right place to swing, it's okay of you screw up - you can just try again!).

Taken to extreme proportions:

Kerafyrm, The Sleeper (EverQuest)
Probably the hardest dragon boss of all time, as it had around 250 million health point, was invulnerable to nearly all spells and had the ability to use death touch (kill a player with one touch).With the average 6999 damage per swing, The Sleeper killed everything that came on its way. Whole fight took 3 hours to finish and was only possible thanks to quick resurrections. Interesting to know, is that with each death, EverQuest players lost experience points and de-leveled several times during the fight. Kerafyrm could only be awakened once on every server and he never respawned again.

[Sibyll]

EQ raiding: You're at bat in game 7 of the world series, it's the bottom of the 9th with three runners on down by 3. (One meaningful attempt, that took a lot of effort to get to).
FFXIV raiding: Batting practice, with a pitching machine that shoots in a choreographed series of different directions with infinte balls. (Learn the sequence so you can stand in the right place to swing, it's okay of you screw up - you can just try again!)....

Your biased analogies really aren't helping to prove your case. Don't get me wrong, you have some legitimate complaints; however, immunity to all spells and a massive hit point pool coupled with the ability to one shot anyone doesn't sound like a boss fight. Dying and getting resurrected repeatedly is the same strategy that the FATE zergs use against Gorgimera and the Eyes Have It, and calling this strategy is an insult the word.

[Simaril]

Ok... here's a more direct comparison-

FFXIV: lots of skill, minimal set-up effort, minimal risk
EQ: minimal skill, lots of set-up effort, lots of risk

My problem is the very limited set of "skill tests" we see (dance and spam).


I'm not sure either really requires much more or less strategy... you just read what someone else did... FFXIV does offer some randomness in encounters, EQ was a less controlled environment... and as you say a bit more like FATEs in that random people might show up, and the world around you was part of the encounter (instead of a locked room).