Too much dancing

[Simaril]

There can be different types of gear checks... You can gear check tanks with bosses that do huge spikes of, or never ending flow of single target damage... which also would test healers... or the ability of dps to assist in healing. There can be healer gear checks that are more focused on raid healing, or more lots of damage to 3 or 4 people. DPS gear checks can be single target damage, or AoE, or multiple target - I really like the one's where you have to prioritize or ignore certain targets (thrornmarch!). It's been very easy to out gear every encounter I've seen so far. It doesn't always have to be gear checks... I don't think I've seen any need for CC in lv 50 instances.

I wouldn't mind a pure tank and spank gear check once in a while that truly tells you "You can't do this because you don't have the gear!" In fact, I'd really welcome that. I'm sure there are players out there that would have the gear, but wouldn't be able to perform to their potential. We don't see it though, because just about everything is a dance.

Ther are other mechaics we've seen that could be used more often, and I'd like to see other mechanics we haven't seen.



Regarding old FF games... uhhh recently played ffII (america) there were a lot of interesting mechanics... Cecil becoming a paladin had to STOP attacking the mirror image of himself... the three sisters required a kill order and reflect was super helpful... the dungeon where you couldn't use anything metal... idk... they kept it interesting, without dancing at their disposal!

[Zarzak]

Regarding old FF games... uhhh recently played ffII (america) there were a lot of interesting mechanics... Cecil becoming a paladin had to STOP attacking the mirror image of himself... the three sisters required a kill order and reflect was super helpful... the dungeon where you couldn't use anything metal... idk... they kept it interesting, without dancing at their disposal!

Sadly they took away one of the easiest ways to make this kind of thing happen. Elemental weakness/strengths.

Fighting Ifrit? Bust out your ice materia enhanced weapon (all weapons having a materia slot at this point obviously) that does ice based damage for extra damage.

Obviously with the over simplified version of BLM we have they couldn't exist in that kind of system. But that's only because they were designed for a place where the system doesn't exist.


Also randomness would be nice. Going with the above system.. ADS is a sophisticated defense robot right? Ok you hit him with too much fire damage ADS learns and adapts so now you need to use ice.. etc etc.


The small raid sizes also screws us out of a lot of dynamic mechanics. Since we can't realistically have things like "oh this add is weak to blunt damage" because in a 8 man environment you can't always have that available.

REALLY disappointed that 8 mans are the primary raids and 24 mans are simply pug content.

[Sibyll]

Regarding old FF games... uhhh recently played ffII (america) there were a lot of interesting mechanics... Cecil becoming a paladin had to STOP attacking the mirror image of himself... the three sisters required a kill order and reflect was super helpful... the dungeon where you couldn't use anything metal... idk... they kept it interesting, without dancing at their disposal!

While there are a lot of interesting mechanics you can throw, the issue with the type of design you are describing is there is little replay value. Once people know that you have to kill the adds in a specific order or that using fire spells heals the boss, then the encounter becomes trivialized even though it might be very rewarding to figure it out on your own for the first time.

The issue with gear check mechanics is that the Tome gear makes it incredibly easy to meet these requirements. Turn 2 enrage method is an example of mechanics getting thrown out the window and the encounter becoming a tank and spank gear check.

Garuda Extreme has some mechanics that don't involve DDR. If you use the NA method it becomes a tank gear check.

Nearly every primal fight has a DPS check component. The encounter designs stress mastery of class and game mechanics more so than meeting arbitrary gear milestones, and I don't believe this is a bad thing. I regularly see very well geared DPS that can't make simple DPS checks because they understand class mechanics, tanks that melt because they don't know how to use cooldowns and players with relics and full myth tome gear that can't avoid AoEs on Titan HM.

SE has managed to gate content almost entirely on "do not stand in fire" mechanics which is rather sad when you think about it. Perhaps it's so they can confidently throw more complex mechanics at the players knowing that the player base has mastered the art of positioning.

[Simaril]

SE has managed to gate content almost entirely on "do not stand in fire" mechanics which is rather sad when you think about it. Perhaps it's so they can confidently throw more complex mechanics at the players knowing that the player base has mastered the art of positioning.

This is exactly what I'm talking about. I find it sad for a couple of reasons.

-"do not stand in the fire" mechanics amke the game very one dimensional
-I am not great at positioning, and I would rather see a game that does NOT require mastering that art... When should dancing be an important component of RPGs??? I'd be happy to see some enounters where you don't have to move at all.
-I was hoping Final Fantasy would come up with something new, interesting, fun, and BETTER.

While there are a lot of interesting mechanics you can throw, the issue with the type of design you are describing is there is little replay value. Once people know that you have to kill the adds in a specific order or that using fire spells heals the boss, then the encounter becomes trivialized even though it might be very rewarding to figure it out on your own for the first time.

Replay value is a challange, but not impossible to overcome. Could gearcheck bosses hp/defense/dmg reflect raid members ilvl? Could encounters include more randomness... like sometimes having a caster add you have to burn, but other times having a tank add you're better off ignoring or CCing?

Nearly every primal fight has a DPS check component. The encounter designs stress mastery of class and game mechanics more so than meeting arbitrary gear milestones, and I don't believe this is a bad thing. I regularly see very well geared DPS that can't make simple DPS checks because they understand class mechanics, tanks that melt because they don't know how to use cooldowns and players with relics and full myth tome gear that can't avoid AoEs on Titan HM.

While there are gearchecks, there are few barriers preventing you from getting way better gear than you need (crafted and tomes allow you to bypass gear checks). You might need ilv 70 for titan HM, but you can get ilv 70 crafted gear before you even hit 50, so it's easy to significantly out gear everything through Titan HM - IMO each tier of gear should be gated by gear checks. This probably wasn't true for players who got to endgame quickly, but it is for the more casual players who would actually benefit from some gating and the feeling of tiers.


I had a full set of ilv70 crafted gear before I went to a lv 50 instance... so I trivialized any gearcheck in:

Castrum Meridanum
Praetorium
Ifrit HM
Wanderer's Palace
Amdapor Keep
Garuda HM
Copperbell HM
Haukke HM
Pharos Sirius
King Mog was quite easy in ilv 70
Titan... ok now you need 3,200 hps - so ilv 70 + a few materia
Ultima
Crystal Tower

Maybe part of my issue isn't the instances, but rather the availabilty of gear? Honestly, I think the "dance check" is too harsh, while there are essentially no other "checks."

[CompSci88]

I'd be happy to see some enounters where you don't have to move at all.

Yeah, because tank and spank for 10+min is really fun.

[Simaril]

Gear checks aren't playing chess, they're the sign in front of a ferris wheel that says "You must be this tall to ride".

I had a full set of ilv70 crafted gear before I went to a lv 50 instance... so I trivialized any gearcheck in:

Castrum Meridanum
Praetorium
Ifrit HM
Wanderer's Palace
Amdapor Keep
Garuda HM
Copperbell HM
Haukke HM
Pharos Sirius

None of those offer anything above ilv70, so there's no need to do them for progression.

These offer some gear upgrades, but again barely offer a gearcheck at all:
King Mog was quite easy in ilv 70
Titan... ok now you need 3,200 hps - so ilv 70 + a few materia
Ultima
Crystal Tower


So "progression" is not based on gear to that point, instead it's how good you are at dancing. Is that really what you expect from an MMO?

[Trashy]

I had a full set of ilv70 crafted gear before I went to a lv 50 instance

So you had gear well beyond what most level 50s have and then complain you're too geared for the intro level 50 content.

[Sibyll]

I had a full set of ilv70 crafted gear before I went to a lv 50 instance... so I trivialized any gearcheck...

At gear levels appropriate to the instance (with the exception of Castrum and Praetorium) each of those instances is challenging in it's own way due to DPS checks (Ifrit HM, Garuda HM, Haukke Manor, and AK) or simple mechanics. Are you really surprised that you found these instances to be devoid of challenge when you walked into them in gear 20 levels above the requirement for them?

Thornmarch is a DPS check. Titan is a DPS Race and healer check. Ultima is a DPS Race and tank swap. Crystal Tower is a zerg/trollfest.

Also what are the challenges and obstacles being overcome by waiting for spawn timers? Patience and boredom?

[Trashy]

I wouldn't mind a pure tank and spank gear check once in a while that truly tells you "You can't do this because you don't have the gear!"

Go ahead and try to join a Party Finder group for Coil Turn 4 or EX Primals. It's exactly what you're requesting here. Hell, we didn't get a chance to do T4 last week because our other healer was out, and our replacement from the FC didn't have the gear to do it. Turn 4 requires extremely little dodging. For the most part, I stand still, with a few adjustments in position during phase shifts.

Cecil becoming a paladin had to STOP attacking the mirror image of himself... the three sisters required a kill order and reflect was super helpful... the dungeon where you couldn't use anything metal... idk... they kept it interesting, without dancing at their disposal!

Yeah it's not like FFXIV has fights where you have to stop DPSing certain targets (Caduceus with 2 feeds or after split, Garuda EX Spiny), or a fight with a kill order (Brayflox Inferno Drake, Cutter's Cry Myrmidon Princess, Garuda EX, Coil Turn 4). Or a fight where certain skills are super helpful (silence in Turn 1, Turn 2, and Pharos Sirius.)

Or other interesting non-dodging mechanics, like feeds in turn 1, conflag/fireballs, death sentence and hatch in Turn 5, Allagan Rot in turn 2, Magic Reflect/Physical Stone skin in Turn 4, Sisters phase in Garuda EX, and bubble bursting in Ultima HM.

[Simaril]

Go ahead and try to join a Party Finder group for Coil Turn 4 or EX Primals. It's exactly what you're requesting here.

So the first 12 or so instances at level 50 (and all the one's prior to 50) should have trivial or no gear checks???

Yeah it's not like FFXIV has fights where you have to stop DPSing certain targets (Caduceus with 2 feeds or after split, Garuda EX Spiny), or a fight with a kill order (Brayflox Inferno Drake, Cutter's Cry Myrmidon Princess, Garuda EX, Coil Turn 4). Or a fight where certain skills are super helpful (silence in Turn 1, Turn 2, and Pharos Sirius.)

Or other interesting non-dodging mechanics, like feeds in turn 1, conflag/fireballs, death sentence and hatch in Turn 5, Allagan Rot in turn 2, Magic Reflect/Physical Stone skin in Turn 4, Sisters phase in Garuda EX, and bubble bursting in Ultima HM.

I'm not saying FFXIV doesn't have those things. I AM saying that it doesn't have enough of them... and it has TOO MUCH dancing.

Proper positioning and avoiding AoEs is not exactly something new to MMOs. I fail to see how standing still DPSing/healing/tanking could possibly be interesting.

Having semi-random boss encounters could be interesting, but clearly a lot of people are still struggling with scripted boss fight mechanics.

Before WoW, MMO raiding I experienced did not have nearly the level of movement required in the last 7 or 8 years. Positioning was important, strategy was important, timing was important... movement not nearly as much as it has become in the last several years. In EQ, there were a lot of encounters where I literally didn't even consider moving at all.

Also I'd like to clarify that when I said it was sad that SE has gated content with "do not stand in fire" mechanics, I meant it's sad that people are that bad that they are unable to overcome such a simple mechanic.

I understand and appreciate what you mean. It makes me sad for a different reason. I wish MMOs didn't feel the need to use dancing as their primary difficulty factor as it seems to be.

Yeah, because tank and spank for 10+min is really fun.

I'm not saying every encounter should be entirely tank and spank... but... yes a true tank and spank gear check would be different and more enjoyable than another dance.






Also... this (from wikipedia):

A square dance is a dance for four couples (eight dancers) arranged in a square, with one couple on each side, facing the middle of the square {sounds like the begining of a boss strategy doesn't it?}. In most American forms of square dance, the dancers are prompted or cued through a sequence of steps (square dance choreography) by a caller to the beat (and, in some traditions, the phrasing) of music. The caller may be one of the dancers or musicians, but nowadays is more likely to be on stage, giving full attention to directing the dancers.

Would you have purchased a square dance MMO? Final Square Dance Fantasy anyone? Is that what we're actually playing?