New Class/Job in 2.2?

[Kitru]

However comparing the other way around it does look like SCH gained a lot over over SMN as far as what it can do. Sure both are equally effective at their corresponding roles, but really it feels more just like the stats changed more than the actual job.

That's because ACN, the base class, is designed with a lot more of the baseline functionality of a DPS locally because ACN *isn't* a healing class. BRD doesn't need to provide any attacks to ARC because ARC already has a fully functional attack string thanks to also being DPS. BLM doesn't get a whole slew of new attacks: it gets bonus AoE functionality (which is what casters are supposed to do better than anyone else) and some secondary personal-support functionality. SMN doesn't get abilities that fundamentally change how you play when you're a SCH because most of its needed functionality (attacks and damage buffs) is provided by the class itself (though Fester, Spur, and Enkindle are pretty big benefits, as I see it; especially Fester). SCH still *uses* a majority of the abilities that ACN provides while being a healer (depending upon how you view Energy Drain, there are either 9 or 10 ACN abilities that are directly useful to a healer; ACN has 18 total) though those act as the secondary requirements of a healer (healing buffs and damage reduction debuffs); the additional abilities that change SCH so much are there because the role is being changed and SCH doesn't have everything that a healer is *supposed* to have on its own (maintenance heal, big heal, AoE heal, cleanse, rez; ACN only brings the maint heal and the rez) though it's appropriate because ACN *does* bring plenty of useful abilities to SCH.

Compare to CNJ and all of a sudden SCH looks like it gained 5 levels of healing instead of 50, it just happened to be on a much more versatile class that has a lot of utility actions.

Except that, if you look at the base class (from a healer perspective), SCH operates at a significant disadvantage as a healer compared to CNJ. CNJ gets most of the healing functionality that it needs via the class: without even *getting* to WHM, CNJ fulfills all of the requirements for a healing role all on its lonesome. WHM isn't turning CNJ into a healer; it's *refining* CNJ because it is *already* a healer. Most of the stuff that SCH gets that you're counting as "levels" when comparing it to WHM/CNJ are (generally) worthless in the eyes of a healer: CNJ gets 4 attacks and 1 DPS stance (that's there for soloing purposes because you can't kill stuff by healing it); ACN has 8. WHM gives CNJ some missing-but-not-required functionality (self buffs), provides a couple heals to fill not-entirely-necessary-functionality gaps (instant heals; one for maintenance, one for uber-healing), and rounds it off with an attack.

To use your metaphor of "gained levels", yes, SCH gains 5 "level"s compared to WHM, but it's starting off 5 levels lower than WHM.

Because compared to the the more versatile setup of ACN, GLA does not look like it will sway very much at all from tanking, and again I would love to tank as RDM and/or BLU, but just adding 5 actions to GLA isn't going to make RDM nor BLU unique enough for me.

The problem with turning GLA into a DPS (or CNJ into a DPS) is that you have too many abilities in the base class devoted to the original role and too few devoted to the new role. GLA has 8 abilities that provide no useful functionality to a DPS (tank CDs, after parry attack, taunt; Flash *could* be seen as worthless, though it's possible to have it deal damage from the job change so I'm not counting it), and CNJ has 6. On the other hand, GLA has only 7 abilities that would be useful for a DPS (assuming Flash would get turned into one; it should also be mentioned that all but 3 of those are highly situational) and CNJ has only 4 (Cleric Stance doesn't count because it requires high baseline MND; if a DPS job was supposed to use Cleric Stance, they'd be stacking MND and, therefore, be able to heal nearly as well as a WHM when they don't have it active).

It's *possible* to construct DPS jobs for the classes (and, if you play it right, you can actually make a reasonably compelling playstyle; I played around with doing it with Geomancer here), but too much of the base functionality that the class brings would be rendered useless: DPS don't really need heals nor do they need a whole slew of tanking CDs (in fact, the slew of tanking CDs could very easily turn a GLA DPS job into something broken as hell in PvP since they'd be full DPS with tank grade survivability).

I really hope SE makes a Fencer class and extends to both RDM and BLU off that with BLU equipping Scimitars instead and GLA would make a great cross-class candidate for either job if SE wants them to fulfill a Tank Role or support tank via Support Role.

BLU could *maybe* pull a slot as a tank job, but I honestly expect that it would go to Mystic Knight (MYS) before it ever went to BLU. Also, you can't really go from equipping one weapon as the class and a different one as the job, so, if BLU were built off of Fencer, I'd expect it to use the same thing (fencing swords). As to GLA as a CC candidate, it's pretty much required because of Provoke, and, if you pull more than just the existing suite that WAR has access to in order to bolster existing performance, you end up stealing GLA's thunder (which is, you know, it's CD suite).

I definitely see RDM as an mDPS with support capabilities. BLU could probably do it too, though I'd expect it to get a different base class than RDM.

[OmegaNovaios]

BLU could *maybe* pull a slot as a tank job, but I honestly expect that it would go to Mystic Knight (MYS) before it ever went to BLU. Also, you can't really go from equipping one weapon as the class and a different one as the job, so, if BLU were built off of Fencer, I'd expect it to use the same thing (fencing swords). As to GLA as a CC candidate, it's pretty much required because of Provoke, and, if you pull more than just the existing suite that WAR has access to in order to bolster existing performance, you end up stealing GLA's thunder (which is, you know, it's CD suite).

I definitely see RDM as an mDPS with support capabilities. BLU could probably do it too, though I'd expect it to get a different base class than RDM.

Well my reasoning for being able to have a different wpn for BLU is that DRK keeps being brought up as a 2nd job for GLA quite often. It's certainly not using a 1 handed sword. It will most likely use a 2 handed sword which PLD most likely won't be able to use.

Maybe Fencer (maybe Duelist instead) can use both Degens and Scimitars but RDM can only use Degens and BLU can only use Scimitars. From my past experiences both RDM and BLU are jack-of-all-trades and particularly in FFXI both can fulfill all roles.

I've Tanked(including non /NIN)/DPSed/Healed/Supported on both RDM and BLU at Lv 75 cap, and sometimes I even mixed the roles and performed multiple ones at lesser values at the same time depending on the party setup and the fight. However subjobs really helped RDM and BLU perform other roles, basically with a jack-of-all-trades you were a master of none but a subjob greatly closed that gap. In theory from my perspective RDM is 1/3 WHM 1/3 BLM and 1/3 WAR from the original concepts.

BLU is even more versatile than that.

Oh trust me, a Scholar can make perfect use of DoT skills left over from when it was an Arcanist. When I'm in parties its roughly the same as having three DPS with 2 Healers due to the Fairy counting. I still haven't learned to place my Fairy yet, but I do know how to use her skills away from mine and can force her into doing a well placed group heal along with mine, then give a quick focus to slap Bio 2 + Miasma + Bio 1 on the Tank's biggest worry and immediately go back to fully supporting my team with heals.

My issue with SCH is that my only experience with the job was in FFXI, which was 1/2 WHM and 1/2 BLM (which is what the majority of people considered RDM in FFXI to be). In FFXIV the way SCH is setup is cool I just don't feel like it deserves that name at all. The AF and lore matches the name perfectly, but for the me the actions don't. This is why I feel SCH was thrown under the bus. Sure SCH can do dmg, but so can WHM and in most scenarios where you would want a healer to also do dmg (WP SR or for a quick burst) I would honestly take a WHM over a SCH. SCH would be better DPS for a single-target/longer fight (also AOE if longer) than WHM, but in EG you just don't see healers in the DPS role unless the party far outclasses the content in skill/gear. For example I have ran AK with 4 DPS roles and solo tanked/solo healed with Titan-Egi as SMN w/o any wipes, but that just isn't going to be viable in EG.

Also, while I like SMN (it's my main), it feels MORE like a Warlock from WoW than a FF style SMN. SMN is also a cool setup but like SCH (and yet again the AF and lore matches the name) I don't feel like it deserves that name. I don't want RDM and BLU to end up like these jobs, where the name doesn't fit the actions/play style (which I consider being thrown under the bus).

[Kitru]

Well my reasoning for being able to have a different wpn for BLU is that DRK keeps being broguht up as a 2nd job for GLA. It's certainly not using a 1 handed sword. It will most likely use a 2 handed sword which PLD most likely won't be able to use.

I wouldn't expect weapons to change from job to job. Class are defined and determined by their weapon choice, not the other way around. It makes perfect sense for DRK, if it's built off of GLA, to keep using a 1h sword and shield, and, honestly, it makes a lot more sense than having it spontaneously switch over to 2h: for the same amount of work, they could pretty much make an entirely new class (they would already have to reevaluate the damage and CDs for it to do proper damage and have a not-boring-as-hell rotation).

If DRK is going to go 2h, I fully expect it to be based off of a second class entirely (I did such a design in my sig). Of course, at that point, I also expect it to be a tank rather than a DPS job since the (appropriate) options for tank jobs are pretty slim (Mystic Knight and Berserker are the only real "iconic" FF jobs that would make sense as tank besides DRK; everything else makes more sense as a DPS or healer).

[OmegaNovaios]

If DRK is going to go 2h, I fully expect it to be based off of a second class entirely (I did such a design in my sig). Of course, at that point, I also expect it to be a tank rather than a DPS job since the (appropriate) options for tank jobs are pretty slim (Mystic Knight and Berserker are the only real "iconic" FF jobs that would make sense as tank besides DRK; everything else makes more sense as a DPS or healer).

If DRK doesn't go 2H (whether Greatsword or Scythe) then EVERYONE is going to be rioting the forums at that fail of what I have stated above: throwing the job under the bus. DRK isn't even a job on my top 5 jobs I'm hoping to see, but to see a DRK holding a Sword and Shield for DPS is just unacceptable to me. Sure you can DPS with that setup. It's very easy to rewrite stats so that GLA attacks can do dmg with a new job, but when you turn the iconic DRK into something so different people are going to be very angry when they expect to roll on "DRK" and get handed a Tank or a 1H DPS.

If we want every job to be described the way it SHOULD be and NEVER have the wpn choice of the class changing, then the armory system is pointless. SE will only be creating classes with 1 job. It's either add new wpns for jobs coming off certain classes or scrap classes entirely. SE is going to run into lots of issues trying to do so otherwise. They will either have a fail system or very angry customers.

[Exstal]

If DRK doesn't go 2H (whether Greatsword or Scythe) then EVERYONE is going to be rioting the forums at that fail of what I have stated above: throwing the job under the bus.

By everyone you mean people who played FFXI and thought it was a good game which evidently, through mountains of contrary evidence, stated the opposite and those who played FFX-2. Now those who actually liked Dark Knight in any other Final Fantasy game is perfectly content with 1-hand sword and shield or 1 hand spear with shield, etc. Scythe is a glaring shame of Dark Knight not to mention it looks ridiculous. You're supposed to be a wielder of death not a damn farmer.

[Warrlordd]

By everyone you mean people who played FFXI and thought it was a good game which evidently, through mountains of contrary evidence, stated the opposite and those who played FFX-2. Now those who actually liked Dark Knight in any other Final Fantasy game is perfectly content with 1-hand sword and shield or 1 hand spear with shield, etc. Scythe is a glaring shame of Dark Knight not to mention it looks ridiculous. You're supposed to be a wielder of death not a damn farmer.

Grim Reaper. enough said about scythes, farmers, and how DRK would not look lame with one.

[OmegaNovaios]

You're supposed to be a wielder of death not a damn farmer.

I didn't realize farmers were this badass, maybe I should consider a career change IRL.

[Kitru]

I didn't realize farmers were this badass, maybe I should consider a career change IRL.

Yes, because caricatures of warriors wielding absurd weapons automatically translates into "badass". If your only requirement for "badass" is that an artist is able to make a decent rendition of it, there's really no limit on what could be used by a class.

The only reason that people seem to assume that Death Knights should use a scythe is because of the traditional western view of Death as a Reaper. What people seem to forget about this is that scythes are not, nor have they ever been, weapons. They're farm implements, and Death carried one ("wielding" isn't really an appropriate term) because of the idea of reaping souls in the same manner that one reaped grain. Actual scythes were never used in combat, for good reasons: they're terrible weapons. The scythe that Death carried was purely symbolic. Using a scythe in combat is ludicrous; the only times they *were* used in combat, they were specifically modified to not be absurd by reforging the blade such that it was no longer perpendicular to the haft, at which point it is less of a scythe and more of a traditional polearm.

The only way for a scythe to not be a completely absurd choice for melee weapon (not to mention completely without precedent in the series outside of FFXI, which, as plenty of people are wont to tell you, is one of the absolute worst possible games to bring up as an example of good game design) would be for it to be wielded by a caster. I could see a *necromancer* class using a scythe, as a purely symbolic apparatus similar to the ACN books, CNJ wands/staves, and THM scepter/staves, but an actual class that gets into melee and wails on things with its weapon needs to use an *actual* weapon, not some absurd notion that got picked up and mutilated by popular/goth culture.

[Exstal]

I didn't realize farmers were this badass, maybe I should consider a career change IRL.

You know you can only use that weapon in one direction right? When you slash from side to side.