Suggestion of Paladin "utility and fun" improvement

[Kitru]

If you want to compare an instant Stoneskin to IB, then lets consider this.

IB is already balanced against PLDs with just Shield Oath and shield. Comparing *additional* benefits to PLD against a mechanic that is already required in order to be balanced with PLD is double dipping on balance comparisons.

[AzumaKun]

IB is already balanced against PLDs with just Shield Oath and shield. Comparing *additional* benefits to PLD against a mechanic that is already required in order to be balanced with PLD is double dipping on balance comparisons.

Really? Proof of that would be great.

[Kitru]

Really? Proof of that would be great.

Gamemeko did an absolutely stellar job of it here.

[Enfarious]

Gamemeko did an absolutely stellar job of it here.

As someone that really does play both, and doesn't mind either, except that in 1.xx I was forced to WAR in any/every PUG for any/anything I did ...

Arguments of post-patch mitigation and eHP:
Like virtually every other comparison that one appears (I may have just missed it) to have left out the DR debuff from WAR, it is a straight DR of 10%, which is 1/2 of what a PLD gets out of Shield Oath...
Just sayin': The "almost dead even as they are" arguments all fail to account for that. Which more or less means all the "almost dead even as they are" arguments are wrong. WAR actually has an advantage ...

More to the OP:
PLD really does need a finishing hit to the Riot Blade combo, something that can be used in OTing situations as more and more the tank swapping is proving to be a thing, PLD are going to get more and more edged out for damage output reasons. Doesn't have a huge impact on most of us if we're willing to play both, but as it stands WAR has distinct advantages now. 2x WAR will outperform PLD/WAR and even more so PLD/PLD until PLD can start bringing some actual damage to the table.

Onto enmity in AoE situations:
WAR far outdoes PLD, yes, flash is nearly limitless if you Riot Blade in the middle of things, but a WAR that bottoms out TP still has flash, and they've generated far more enmity in the same amount of time as a PLD w/ just Flash to work with.

In the argument of designed to be easy peasy:
Boring design is bad design, and PLD is rather boring. WAR is more to do and more to keep track of, PLD doesn't need to not have those things to be different, it just has to have different things. The OP presented a way to use a different thing. WAR got patched into a more PLD-like tank, why not the other way around?

It's all ok, in the end 2.2 will see PLD back in the top spot and WARs will be calling for changes again, just like before 2.1 WAR were calling for change and PLDs were saying it's not needed lol. Until 2.2 PLDs will continue to call for change while WARs say it's fine as is. Nobody wants their "favorite" job to be the underdog.

[glen7187]

As someone that really does play both, and doesn't mind either, except that in 1.xx I was forced to WAR in any/every PUG for any/anything I did ...

Arguments of post-patch mitigation and eHP:
Like virtually every other comparison that one appears (I may have just missed it) to have left out the DR debuff from WAR, it is a straight DR of 10%, which is 1/2 of what a PLD gets out of Shield Oath...
Just sayin': The "almost dead even as they are" arguments all fail to account for that. Which more or less means all the "almost dead even as they are" arguments are wrong. WAR actually has an advantage ...

This was posted later in Gamemako's thread:

You are talking about two different things, both of which are represented in the first post. The first is effective HP, which determines whether or not you survive the big hit, like a critical attack and Death Sentence. This does not concern healing at all, just whether you make it out the other side while still standing. The second is mitigation, which is represented in all of the graphs aside from the first one. Those describe how much your tank's abilities reduce the amount of healing the healers have to throw out to keep you alive over time. In each one of those graphs, the benefits of both Shield Oath and Defiance are properly represented (and yes, Shield Oath offers a larger effective bonus than Defiance).

I'm sure he included the 10% DR in his graphs.

[Zoomie]

I'm sure he included the 10% DR in his graphs.

She is referring to the 10% DR from storms path I think. I can't say for sure whether or not that was included in this math you posted. That being said I also don't know if the RoH debuff was added.

Regardless Enfarious is wrong on so many levels I'm not sure it matters.

[Kitru]

Boring design is bad design, and PLD is rather boring.

Some people prefer simple. The devs provided two different levels of complexity, which is a good thing. If you want to complain about PLD being boring but don't want to swap to WAR, it's because you care more about the class you're playing as opposed to how your class plays, so you're really just making arbitrary demands based upon your class rather than actual game design constructs.

It's all ok, in the end 2.2 will see PLD back in the top spot and WARs will be calling for changes again, just like before 2.1 WAR were calling for change and PLDs were saying it's not needed lol. Until 2.2 PLDs will continue to call for change while WARs say it's fine as is. Nobody wants their "favorite" job to be the underdog.

The WAR changes were *balance* changes and PLD and WAR are incredibly well balanced right now. Any changes to mechanics that affect tanking directly are going to end up breaking the balance that currently exists (and I think you'll have a hard time finding anyone that understands both classes that thinks that they're *not* super well balanced at the moment). The most that PLD can expect us some QoL changes and *maybe* OT changes that allow them to do damage without generating gobloads of enmity. Neither class is the underdog at the moment.

[Enfarious]

This was posted later in Gamemako's thread:
I'm sure he included the 10% DR in his graphs.

Not once is it mentioned, Defiance is mentioned, Shield Oath is mentioned, Storm's is not. If I really did miss it, then ok, I don't believe I did though.

She is referring to the 10% DR from storms path I think. I can't say for sure whether or not that was included in this math you posted. That being said I also don't know if the RoH debuff was added.

Regardless Enfarious is wrong on so many levels I'm not sure it matters.

RoH is a str debuff, not a straight DR, where am I wrong exactly? Seriously, I actually would like to know.

Some people prefer simple. The devs provided two different levels of complexity, which is a good thing. If you want to complain about PLD being boring but don't want to swap to WAR, it's because you care more about the class you're playing as opposed to how your class plays, so you're really just making arbitrary demands based upon your class rather than actual game design constructs.

The WAR changes were *balance* changes and PLD and WAR are incredibly well balanced right now. Any changes to mechanics that affect tanking directly are going to end up breaking the balance that currently exists (and I think you'll have a hard time finding anyone that understands both classes that thinks that they're *not* super well balanced at the moment). The most that PLD can expect us some QoL changes and *maybe* OT changes that allow them to do damage without generating gobloads of enmity. Neither class is the underdog at the moment.

I said at the outset, I play both, I'm fine with both. I simply see WAR being the optimal selection now.

I didn't say a thing about actual tanking mechanics either, just that a proper damage combo, one that doesn't include enmity, should exist. It should get us on par w/ a DD WAR, nothing more, nothing less.

Super well balanced, I'll argue, WAR can tank everything a PLD can, PLD can not hit the damage output a WAR can. That is imbalance.

[Dyne_Fellpool]

Not once is it mentioned, Defiance is mentioned, Shield Oath is mentioned, Storm's is not. If I really did miss it, then ok, I don't believe I did though.

He does mention it, but not in a way that quantifies them, here:

There are no differences in defense for which to account, and I accidentally left my crystal ball on the other forums and can't tell you the relative value of SP and RoH debuffs.

Yes, I know its a STR debuff and not a straight DR. But both tanks take advantage of both debuffs in an 8+ man party, so its pretty moot. For 4-man content the difference is negligible.