2.1 PLD snooze fest Flash

[Giantbane]

Did the point go over your head?

obviously

Except you SHOULDN'T make large errors anyway.
You were being rewarded just as much as you do now.

But at least there used to be a penalty for making large errors. Now there isn't. Contrary to your endless assertions, that does actually constitute a difference and some people don't like that. You don't think DPS should have to watch their threat, they should just be able to go all out, no matter what. Others don't agree. You think WHM should be able to spam medica if they want to or feel the need to without drawing threat. Others don't agree. But you seem to be asserting that anyone who doesn't agree with you is stupid having a different opinion on the matter because they can't just see it as simply as you do.

NUMBERS!

I'm arguing semantics because what you are saying does not mean what you are saying. Don't say it that way. Nobody is going to read what you write and interpret it the way you want them to. Not just me, I mean no reasonable person.

And what think you're saying is horribly and unnecessarily complicated for no particularly good reason whatsoever. So even if someone gets it, they're then going to proceed to wonder why you said it.

The change you are describing (the 33%) is a percentage of the damage you're doing with Defiance On. The damage you're doing with Defiance on is a calculated value based on how much damage you were doing with Defiance off. Why would you express the change in terms of the derived value instead of just expressing the change in terms of the base value. There's no reason for this.

Seriously, here's the equation for what you're saying

10 - 0.33 x ( 10 - 0.25 x 10 ) = 7.5

Just reduce the damn equation to

10 - 0.25 x 10 = 7.5

Because it's the same thing. You lost 25% damage, the end.


The comparison between Shield Oath and Defiance is what's tripping you up. Shield oath reduces damage, Defiance adds hp. They're doing two completely different things. In order to compare them you need to convert from one to the other. The easiest way to go about this is to convert both into common units, like effective hp so that you can compare them. Don't try to slap the same math that was used when converting Shield Oath damage reduced into effective HP. It's not appropriate. It's not the same problem you're trying to solve.

[Leiron]

But at least there used to be a penalty for making large errors. No there isn't. Contrary to your endless assertions, that does actually constitute a difference and some people don't like that. But you seem to be asserting that they're stupid for having a different opinion on the matter because they can't just see it like you do.

No. I never said you or anyone else is stupid for their opinion.
I am saying it is stupid to complain and suggest there are issues resulting from this change.
That it is disingenous to state there is a gameplay change.

Those large errors shouldn't be made because they require errors at a BASIC level.
Not doing your combos.
Not using your AOE threat abilities.
Those are things that result from NOT pushing your buttons in order, which is an EXTREMELY easy thing to do
FFXIV:ARR is not difficult when it comes to execution.
Its the easiest game out there.

snip

Thank you for agreeing.
Again, its semantics, you simply don't LIKE what is being said, not because there is an issue with what is being said. Not because there is anything wrong being said.

You are arguing for the sake of arguing, because you're annoyed I disagree with you regarding your opinion on the Shield Oath/Defiance buff, not because you actually disagreed with me regarding the effect of Defiance.
Get over yourself dude.

[Giantbane]

Thank you for agreeing.
Again, its semantics, you simply don't LIKE what is being said, not because there is an issue with what is being said. Not because there is anything wrong being said.

You are arguing for the sake of arguing, because you're annoyed I disagree with you regarding your opinion on the Shield Oath/Defiance buff, not because you actually disagreed with me regarding the effect of Defiance.
Get over yourself dude.

Apparently I'm too subtle.

What did you write?

You lose 33% of your damage when you apply Defiance.

That sentence is wrong. 100% wrong. It's wholly not true, and your math is abysmal. The damage you did was 10. The damage you do after is 7.5. You lost 2.5 damage. 2.5 divided by 10 is 25%. That is correct. That is the ONLY correct way to say this, there is no other way.

That which you attempted to say?

You lose 33% of the damage you do after losing 25% of the damage you did.

Stupid. You're adding numbers for no good reason. The 25% is the important part. The 33% is extra, drop it. The 33% would important if you want to know how much damage you GAIN by turning Defiance Off. Did you say Gain?How about more? Additional? Plus? Positive? Any indication we're wanting to reverse the calculation from LESS to MORE? No. Good, wrong.

How did you attempt to further explain why you were correct?

When comparing Shield Oath and Defiance, you have to invert the damage reduced by Shield Oath to convert from damage reduced to the amount of damage you can take.

It's a different problem. It requires a different solution. You can't just cut/paste the math from one problem to the next and expect everything to work out ok. It's not at all relevant. It's wrong to bring it up.

Pattern? You're good at being wrong and you will defend your wrong assertions and will keep making them. Even when it's as simple as whether or not losing 25% of something is actually losing 25%.

As it relates to this thread? A mildly more complicated discussion that isn't as cut and dry? It's quite possible you could be wrong, confused, grossly oversimplifying things and/or willfully ignoring any subtleties beyond "GOOD TANKS DON'T LOSE THREAT" when considering the Enmity Buff.

[Leiron]

Apparently I'm too subtle.

I think its not a matter of subtlety, so much as you being intentionally dense.
Perhaps if you hesitated dancing your fingers across the keyboard, you would understand you're arguing over literally, nothing!

You lose 33% of your damage when you apply Defiance.

yes, because of the 25% damage debuff.
you are 33% less effective, BECAUSE of the 25% damage debuff.
Complaining for the sake of complaining is silly

snip

Again, you are arguing semantics.
You admitted towards arguing semantics.
Stop arguing semantics.

You simply have qualms with how something is said, not because it results in the statement having different meaning.

Pattern? You're good at being wrong and you will defend your wrong assertions and will keep making them. Even when it's as simple as whether or not losing 25% of something is actually losing 25%.

If you say so buddy, but an assertion about someone, does not make it true.
Just as your statement about the enmity buff having an effect on gameplay, is like wise untrue.

The only pattern I am seeing, is that you enjoy making mountains over mole hills.
Whether it be a statement regarding damage reduction, or the fact that an enmity buff hasn't had any change on gameplay.

If you honestly are trying to suggest a Tank had to worry about enmity outside of being massively outgeared, then you are kidding yourself.

As it relates to this thread? A mildly more complicated that isn't as cut and dry? It's quite possible you could be wrong, confused, grossly oversimplifying things and/or willfully ignoring any subtleties beyond "GOOD TANKS DON'T LOSE THREAT" when considering the Enmity Buff.

You mean the possibility of yourself being wrong, over complicating the issue and there being a lack of subtleties is impossible?
People who enjoy suggesting other people are wrong, don't seem to entertain the possibility of themselves being wrong.

Fact of the matter is, it is simple.
You're just angry at the fact that a change you felt was not needed was introduced.
Even if that change has no game play, you're still upset about it because why not?
If they had never made any statement about changing the enmity bonus from Shield oath/Defiance you probably wouldn't have noticed nor cared.

Gameplay didn't change, you just THINK it changed, and you have yet to even provide actual reasoning as to why it changed outside of scenarios that seldom occur.

[Giantbane]

And we're back to where we started. I tried.

Gameplay didn't change, you just THINK it changed, and you have yet to even provide actual reasoning as to why it changed outside of scenarios that seldom occur.

Anyhow, no, I noticed it straight away. Didn't have anything to do with the patch notes. And that's really my problem with the whole thing. If it was a subtle change, I'd be ok with it. But it wasn't, it's so obvious and so much that I think they went too far.

[ZDamned]

Seriiously, the more I play this patch, the less I have to think when I tank.. =/ It's such a huge difference, I literally tell my Damage Dealers to do whatever the F they want, I'll hold everything anyway.

I have started Marking targets very erratically, with Triangles, and Circles instead of numbers, just for laughs. (If I even bother to mark at all.)

This buff was far too strong.

If you say so buddy,

Leiron, You can't base Warrior damage IN defiance, that's why your being argued against. Stop fighting for your incorrect stance, it's making you look ignorant. The only time 33% applies correctly, is when you use Unchained to gain back your ORIGINAL damage.

Technically, you are NOT 33% less effective or else you would be dealing only 67% of your damage.

Remember, all values are based on your Original un-Buffed stats. which means any statistical gains or Decreases are originating from non-defiance.

You can however become 33% MORE effective by using Unchained while in Defiance.