2.1 Steel Cyclone, Not Enough

[Traek]

I think for SC to ever see real use it would need some sort of damage management buff/debuff that increases in benefit the more mobs it hits, scaling so when you hit say 4+ mobs it outshines Inner Beast's DR.

While I agree it needs damage management, outshining IB 20% DR would be OP. I was thinking a little more sustained but lower % DR to put us more in line with shield blocking. Numbers can be tweaked of course but we are getting some powerful tools to put us in line with PLDs come 2.1, I don't want to step over the line, just nudge us closer.

I'd like to see it changed to heal for 50% of damage dealt, and grant 7% DR per target hit (max 20%) for 6 seconds, effectively becoming an Inner Beast substitute against 3+ targets.

I do find the idea of per target hit a fun idea that adds some flavor. Makes you think of positioning and gathering to add it all up. Like I said above, encroaching on IB 20% DR seems to add up and edge the line of OP. We are getting damage/threat, some heals from Bloodbath, and for free (possible double tap as well). I'm not against it, but I'm trying to be conservative to stand with PLDs, and not clearly edge them out of any role.

Steel Cyclone's 1.0 version anyone? lol

I thought of this earlier, I like the idea of a parry buff for it to match up to Shield block/extra mitigation, but the point is to not be able to use in conjunction with abilities like IB for some form of super mitigation on Single Targets etc. That is why I suggest straight DR and not allowing it to happen with IB.

*EDIT*

Steel Cyclone
Delivers an attack with a potency of 200 to all nearby enemies and reduces damage taken by 10% for 4 seconds, reduce damage taken by an additional 5% and increase duration by 2 seconds for each additional enemy hit. Ignores the 35% damage penalty inflicted by Defiance. Can only be executed when Infuriated. All Wrath is lost when used. Additional Effect: Increased Enmity

I like what you did thar! Again depending on the DR and numbers. Capping at 20% and 8 sec would be a max IMO. Honestly even 15% DR on 8 seconds would seem very reasonable. Without knowing relative damage mitigation on PLDs/WARs in this scenario I am hesitant for the higher DR %s. If people could do the math I'd be interested.

[Phreak]

While I agree it needs damage management, outshining IB 20% DR would be OP. I was thinking a little more sustained but lower % DR to put us more in line with shield blocking. Numbers can be tweaked of course but we are getting some powerful tools to put us in line with PLDs come 2.1, I don't want to step over the line, just nudge us closer.

The problem I see with it never becoming better but only matching IBs DR is from a pure tanking perspective do I really want to blow 5 wrath for a little extra damage and DR? or do I want a self heal (which im bound to get full use out of AoE tanking) and the exact same DR?

I like what you did thar! Again depending on the DR and numbers. Capping at 20% and 8 sec would be a max IMO. Honestly even 15% DR on 8 seconds would seem very reasonable. Without knowing relative damage mitigation on PLDs/WARs in this scenario I am hesitant for the higher DR %s. If people could do the math I'd be interested.

The problem is when a WAR looks to spend their Wrath they're going to be looking between SC and IB not wondering about PLD cooldowns. If SC is never better than IB there's no reason to use it outside of cases where you're using it for the sake of using it. I think capping it somewhere between 25-30% would be fine considering it would take us 15-20 seconds to get another stack built which even then is unrealisticly short in AoE situations because we are likely using Over Power frequently giving little time to build wrath without losing AoE threat.

I think 8-12 seconds of 20-30% DR in an AoE situation roughly every 30 seconds isn't too OP given our inability to block which sees an increased value when tanking multiple mobs.

Now I would however take a weaker version (capping @ 20% & 8 seconds) if Over Power generated a stack of Wrath when hitting 3+ mobs. 5 GCDs to re-apply SC so about 12.5 seconds (64% uptime). This would bring the trade off between IB and SC a self heal vs raw damage + higher DR uptime when fighting multiple mobs.

[Traek]

The problem I see with it never becoming better but only matching IBs DR is from a pure tanking perspective do I really want to blow 5 wrath for a little extra damage and DR? or do I want a self heal (which im bound to get full use out of AoE tanking) and the exact same DR?

On this note, I figure even at a 10% DR, when you add in enmity modifiers and AoE + Damage + Extended time (8-10 seconds instead of 6) it is more then enough reason to use SC for pickup. I do understand what you are saying however. There is definitely a couple of different directions they could go with. Maybe keeping it per mob hit and up to 20% for the same 6 second (possibly 8 since wrath build as discussed) might be a way of doing it. Again I'd like to see the numbers, I image they'd be close so I'm not exactly disagreeing, just treading with caution.

I certainly wish they'd add viable wrath building for AoE scenarios. Each overpower adding a wrath stack seems too strong. Perhaps a chance % for it might work out better.

[Phreak]

On this note, I figure even at a 10% DR, when you add in enmity modifiers and AoE + Damage + Extended time (8-10 seconds instead of 6) it is more then enough reason to use SC for pickup...I certainly wish they'd add viable wrath building for AoE scenarios. Each overpower adding a wrath stack seems too strong. Perhaps a chance % for it might work out better.

I personally would like to see SC become a staple Wrath dump for AoE situations rather than just a pickup tool.

In regards to a % chance for wrath generation rather than guarnteed I can agree.

Normal wrath generate = ~8 GCDs or 20 seconds
Original Over Power idea = 5 GCDs or 12.5 seconds

12.5 seconds is 62.5% of 20 so maybe give it a 60-70% chance @ 3+ mobs, or to mirror the proposed SC chance baseline 50% with an increase per mob (up to 70%).

I would really like to see a shift in ability usage once we encounter multiple enemies making Over Power + SC our go to kit with maybe keeping maim up as a personal option, leave Flash/SoC spam and tabbing to the PLDs.

[Traek]

I personally would like to see SC become a staple Wrath dump for AoE situations rather than just a pickup tool.

In regards to a % chance for wrath generation rather than guarnteed I can agree.

Normal wrath generate = ~8 GCDs or 20 seconds
Original Over Power idea = 5 GCDs or 12.5 seconds

12.5 seconds is 62.5% of 20 so maybe give it a 60-70% chance @ 3+ mobs, or to mirror the proposed SC chance baseline 50% with an increase per mob (up to 70%).

I would really like to see a shift in ability usage once we encounter multiple enemies making Over Power + SC our go to kit with maybe keeping maim up as a personal option, leave Flash/SoC spam and tabbing to the PLDs.

Err, I realize I said pickup ability, and I don't know why, because I don't want that at all either. So consider that part retracted lol. I really want it to be a staple move like you are getting at, and that was the point of this threads creation. My only wish is to keep the playing field even between PLD and WAR in proposing/implementing these changes.

I believe we are thinking the same thing along the lines of Overpower Wrath gen. Seems more then reasonable, and its definitely essential to keep SC as a staple of our Warrior abilities.

[Phreak]

Err, I realize I said pickup ability, and I don't know why, because I don't want that at all either. So consider that part retracted lol. I really want it to be a staple move like you are getting at, and that was the point of this threads creation. My only wish is to keep the playing field even between PLD and WAR in proposing/implementing these changes.

I believe we are thinking the same thing along the lines of Overpower Wrath gen. Seems more then reasonable, and its definitely essential to keep SC as a staple of our Warrior abilities.

After more thought I do agree that SC's DR shouldn't exceed 20% due to a single scenario.

If they ever design a boss were there are either frequent adds of 3+ or long term adds of 3+ that can be tanked by an OT relatively close to the WAR MT allowing them to net a 30% DR every 15 seconds or so would be quite powerful.

So by keeping it at 20% and allowing Over Power to generate some wrath I can see this being a worth while consideration in regards to AoE situations.

[RhazeCain]

Seems like version mentioned by Yoshi will be good/OK for:
Area damage -- either better than overpower or used when TP runs low.
Snap agro -- don't have to target or line up for a cone. Hopefully more agro than Flash. Or if you're out of mana.

Not every ability has to be the best ability ever. As long as it has some reasonable use sometime, that's all I would ask for.

As for giving up the damage reduction from Inner Beast, there may be times when you'd choose Inner Beast instead. There may also be times when you know your teammates are going hard on area damage and you can't afford to spend the time doing something that doesn't build area threat. In that sort of case you would have a 3rd option beyond just Overpower and Flash.

[Traek]

If they ever design a boss were there are either frequent adds of 3+ or long term adds of 3+ that can be tanked by an OT relatively close to the WAR MT allowing them to net a 30% DR every 15 seconds or so would be quite powerful.

So by keeping it at 20% and allowing Over Power to generate some wrath I can see this being a worth while consideration in regards to AoE situations.

Right. I was trying to think of a good scenario but there isn't a lot to go off of. T4 this might be doable as OT is kiting to swing them close enough to MT for side step and SC for the added DR. Either way 20% isn't OP (IB already accomplishes this) and with wrath gen and Overpower with the short up time, I think it'd be a win overall for Warrior as a class.

Seems like version mentioned by Yoshi will be good/OK for:
Area damage -- either better than overpower or used when TP runs low.
Snap agro -- don't have to target or line up for a cone. Hopefully more agro than Flash. Or if you're out of mana.

Not every ability has to be the best ability ever. As long as it has some reasonable use sometime, that's all I would ask for.

As for giving up the damage reduction from Inner Beast, there may be times when you'd choose Inner Beast instead. There may also be times when you know your teammates are going hard on area damage and you can't afford to spend the time doing something that doesn't build area threat. In that sort of case you would have a 3rd option beyond just Overpower and Flash.

Not every ability has to be the best ever, but I did explain earlier in the thread how SC will still be borderline unused (or should be) if its just an enmity adjustment. Unless your relic +1s are going crazy and you have low resources, that would be the only scenario you'd "need" this ability. Which if you are facerolling properly, shouldn't be an issue. In every scenario you can manage threat (which should be all, given we can now) IB will be the clear choice over SC unless changes are made. Heck I'd even take an extra GCD of unmitigated damage if it meant the aggroe necessary for 6 extra seconds of 20% DR (Flash > Overpower > Overpower > IB > Infuriate > Overpower > Overpower > IB). This will help your raid, and healers far more in the long run.