2.1 Steel Cyclone, Not Enough

[Traek]

I have seen it posted/mentioned in other threads, and it is my personal thoughts that the Steel Cyclone buff still won't be enough to warrant much use. There hasn't been a topic specifically for it, so I thought I'd open up discussion for my fellow Warriors here.

Essentially all I'm seeing SC being useful for is what we all know it'd be useful for, which is snap aggroe. However, on any meaningful content, how can we justify blowing a 20% DR for what usually isn't an issue for us. This is not to mention that Overpower is getting a threat buff (this is good for less tp drain), giving less reason to blow SC over Inner Beast. We also get the awkward position of single target DR move on GCD while threat managing the group on GCD. The only time I truly see SC being a useful ability is when Infuriate is up for the start of pulls. SC > Infuriate > Overpower > Inner Beast > etc. is most likely the best case scenario for SC.

I'd really love to see this move become apart of our AoE rotations. Personally I think choosing between a 20% DR and some extra threat (*usually* not needed, but better then before) is just no contest toward 20% DR.

Something that would be useful, yet not OP in my mind would be some form of 8 second 10% DR when SC lands on a target. Make this non stackable; overwritten by IB DR. At this point it wouldn't be OP, it wouldn't be abused ST (20% DR obviously better) and Warrior would have somewhat of an answer to no shield on pack pulls. Honestly at that point the enmity change wouldn't be needed, as we could AoE snap aggroe things and get them in line for overpower while not getting pummeled so fast healers take aggroe off.

Anyways, just my thoughts. I think 2.1 changes will be quite the step in the right direction to bring Warriors on par with PLDs. Thank you Dev team. This is not a QQ thread, nor a *we are still going to suck* thread. Just an issue I think some of us see coming.

Warriors discuss please.

[Strifin]

That will probably happen, but as warriors we dont have to always have the 20% buff up, true you should but dont have too. SC's buff is nice and would help getting mobs attention thats about it. Hey at least we can use our stacks then just sitting on them.

[Vortok]

It'll entirely depend on the threat modifier, which I expect will at least be as good as Overpower as otherwise it'd just be TP/MP free threat that's otherwise outshined by the low level aoe skills. It's main use will be aoe threat, though I could see some WARs potentially using it on single target for a little bit of burst threat (depending on threat modifier).

When doing aoe threat, there's not really time to build wrath stacks back up so the few seconds of 20% DR you'd get from using Inner Beast instead would have less of an impact unless you know everything is about to burst you. The Aevis mobs in Stone Vigil come to mind as an example, with their Lunge ability they all do a few seconds in the fight which can get dangerous with three of them at once. Your other cooldowns will likely be sufficient for situations like that anyways, handle stuff case by case, blah blah blah.

Just like Overpower, it'll work best with the Bloodbath + Berserk cooldown pairing (I don't see any reason to ever use them separately anyway). Both to generate more threat while dps go wild with aoe and because the self healing (boosted by Berserk) from hitting several things at once (especially as Steel Cyclone hits harder than Overpower) is a form of pseudo DR. It may not heal you to full, but it does slow the rate that your HP drops giving healers an easier time keeping you up. If the stuff you're fighting can be stunned, the new lower cooldown on our stun will also help to lower the incoming damage without decreasing aoe threat output (assuming you don't need to save it to stun something specific on an aoe pull).

[Traek]

That will probably happen, but as warriors we dont have to always have the 20% buff up, true you should but dont have too. SC's buff is nice and would help getting mobs attention thats about it. Hey at least we can use our stacks then just sitting on them.

Honestly, I thought about it, and even in my optimal scenario given (SC > Infuriate > Overpower > IB > Overpower > etc.) it isn't worth it most of the time. If you are prepared for pickup, and not behind the curb for some reason (drop earlier then expected in T4 coil as example) you'll be better off saving Infuriate for 20% DR back to back. So pickup would just be a Flash > Overpower > IB > Infuriate > Overpower x2 > IB > Overpower > etc. I'm not trying to be argue with you, just thinking out loud. Again, if you are doing progressive raiding, these things do matter and add up.

Again, I'm thinking toward *meaningful* content, where we aren't 3 tiers overgeared and blowing SC for funzies and damage numbers.

*EDIT*

When doing aoe threat, there's not really time to build wrath stacks back up so the few seconds of 20% DR you'd get from using Inner Beast instead would have less of an impact unless you know everything is about to burst you. The Aevis mobs in Stone Vigil come to mind as an example, with their Lunge ability they all do a few seconds in the fight which can get dangerous with three of them at once. Your other cooldowns will likely be sufficient for situations like that anyways, handle stuff case by case, blah blah blah.

Just like Overpower, it'll work best with the Bloodbath + Berserk cooldown pairing (I don't see any reason to ever use them separately anyway). Both to generate more threat while dps go wild with aoe and because the self healing (boosted by Berserk) from hitting several things at once (especially as Steel Cyclone hits harder than Overpower) is a form of pseudo DR. It may not heal you to full, but it does slow the rate that your HP drops giving healers an easier time keeping you up. If the stuff you're fighting can be stunned, the new lower cooldown on our stun will also help to lower the incoming damage without decreasing aoe threat output (assuming you don't need to save it to stun something specific on an aoe pull).

As far as your burst scenario, there isn't a huge amount of predictable burst on a vast majority of *AoE* scenarios. It is the whole point of AoE and picking up multiple low hitting mobs. The challenge comes in the collective damage, and burst mechanics aren't seen much, if at all, because of this. I can't think of anywhere that 20% DR is going to be "less impactful" then a bit of free threat, that won't likely be needed with Overpower threat buff either. Warriors don't generally suffer from these threat issues right now, even with +1 Relics going crazy. Some threat gen is definitely less of an impact then 20% DR, especially when you have to choose between the two for ~20 seconds (unless Infuriate as noted).

While I won't discredit using Bloodbath to help out healers in AoE scenario, it won't come anywhere near 20% DR. Also my suggested change wouldn't impact this. Even without threat modifiers my change to SC would give more reason to use these CDs together, and further help healing for AoE scenario. I mean no offense when I say this, but the fact you are talking about Stone Vigil and single target stuns on AoE pack pulls (as well as bloodbath being meaningful) leads me to believe we are talking different worlds of tanking.. This is what got WAR in trouble from the start.

[Calib0s]

I agree that adding bonus enmity to SC, while certainly better than nothing, still isn't enough to make it a very compelling button to push. I'll likely use it in the same situations I do now, which is basically for a laugh in easy four-man content.

I'd like to see it changed to heal for 50% of damage dealt, and grant 7% DR per target hit (max 20%) for 6 seconds, effectively becoming an Inner Beast substitute against 3+ targets.

I'd also love to have a way to consistently build Wrath in an AoE situation, but I guess the point of the additional Overpower threat is to allow us time to get some combos off in between rather than just spam it. Since they didn't release any particular numbers, I'll have to actually play around with the 2.1 changes before I can really have an opinion on it.

[Phreak]

I think for SC to ever see real use it would need some sort of damage management buff/debuff that increases in benefit the more mobs it hits, scaling so when you hit say 4+ mobs it outshines Inner Beast's DR.

EDIT:
Steel Cyclone
Delivers an attack with a potency of 200 to all nearby enemies and reduces damage taken by 5% for 2 seconds, reduce damage taken by an additional 5% (up to 15%) and increase duration by 2 (up to 8) seconds for each enemy hit beyond the first. Ignores the 35% damage penalty inflicted by Defiance. Can only be executed when Infuriated. All Wrath is lost when used. Additional Effect: Increased Enmity.

(A)
Overpower
Delivers an attack with a potency of 120 to all enemies in a cone before you. 50% chance to grant Wrath when used with Defiance. Chance to grant Wrath is increased by 5% for each enemy hit beyond the first up to an additional 20%. Duration: 30s.
Additional Effect: Increased enmity.

OR

(B)
Overpower
Delivers an attack with a potency of 120 to all enemies in a cone before you. 15% Chance your next Steel Cyclone can be executed without being Infuriated. Duration: 10s.
Additional Effect: Increased enmity.

The stacking buff for Steel Cyclone would have a cap. Totals would come out to 20% DR and 10s Duration.

Overpower would have a 70% chance on use to grant Wrath @ 5+ enemies.

This would probably be the easiest way to balance the 2 albeit it's a little wordy and follows the same plain DR buff.

Please don't take these % as fact, it's just an idea. Giving it a base % and a % on mob hit gives them 2 sides to balance this ability from.

[Strifin]

snip

I would like to know as well what fights would be really great for SC too

[BobbinT]

Steel Cyclone's 1.0 version anyone? lol

[Traek]

I think for SC to ever see real use it would need some sort of damage management buff/debuff that increases in benefit the more mobs it hits, scaling so when you hit say 4+ mobs it outshines Inner Beast's DR.

While I agree it needs damage management, outshining IB 20% DR would be OP. I was thinking a little more sustained but lower % DR to put us more in line with shield blocking. Numbers can be tweaked of course but we are getting some powerful tools to put us in line with PLDs come 2.1, I don't want to step over the line, just nudge us closer.

I'd like to see it changed to heal for 50% of damage dealt, and grant 7% DR per target hit (max 20%) for 6 seconds, effectively becoming an Inner Beast substitute against 3+ targets.

I do find the idea of per target hit a fun idea that adds some flavor. Makes you think of positioning and gathering to add it all up. Like I said above, encroaching on IB 20% DR seems to add up and edge the line of OP. We are getting damage/threat, some heals from Bloodbath, and for free (possible double tap as well). I'm not against it, but I'm trying to be conservative to stand with PLDs, and not clearly edge them out of any role.

Steel Cyclone's 1.0 version anyone? lol

I thought of this earlier, I like the idea of a parry buff for it to match up to Shield block/extra mitigation, but the point is to not be able to use in conjunction with abilities like IB for some form of super mitigation on Single Targets etc. That is why I suggest straight DR and not allowing it to happen with IB.

*EDIT*

Steel Cyclone
Delivers an attack with a potency of 200 to all nearby enemies and reduces damage taken by 10% for 4 seconds, reduce damage taken by an additional 5% and increase duration by 2 seconds for each additional enemy hit. Ignores the 35% damage penalty inflicted by Defiance. Can only be executed when Infuriated. All Wrath is lost when used. Additional Effect: Increased Enmity

I like what you did thar! Again depending on the DR and numbers. Capping at 20% and 8 sec would be a max IMO. Honestly even 15% DR on 8 seconds would seem very reasonable. Without knowing relative damage mitigation on PLDs/WARs in this scenario I am hesitant for the higher DR %s. If people could do the math I'd be interested.

[Phreak]

While I agree it needs damage management, outshining IB 20% DR would be OP. I was thinking a little more sustained but lower % DR to put us more in line with shield blocking. Numbers can be tweaked of course but we are getting some powerful tools to put us in line with PLDs come 2.1, I don't want to step over the line, just nudge us closer.

The problem I see with it never becoming better but only matching IBs DR is from a pure tanking perspective do I really want to blow 5 wrath for a little extra damage and DR? or do I want a self heal (which im bound to get full use out of AoE tanking) and the exact same DR?

I like what you did thar! Again depending on the DR and numbers. Capping at 20% and 8 sec would be a max IMO. Honestly even 15% DR on 8 seconds would seem very reasonable. Without knowing relative damage mitigation on PLDs/WARs in this scenario I am hesitant for the higher DR %s. If people could do the math I'd be interested.

The problem is when a WAR looks to spend their Wrath they're going to be looking between SC and IB not wondering about PLD cooldowns. If SC is never better than IB there's no reason to use it outside of cases where you're using it for the sake of using it. I think capping it somewhere between 25-30% would be fine considering it would take us 15-20 seconds to get another stack built which even then is unrealisticly short in AoE situations because we are likely using Over Power frequently giving little time to build wrath without losing AoE threat.

I think 8-12 seconds of 20-30% DR in an AoE situation roughly every 30 seconds isn't too OP given our inability to block which sees an increased value when tanking multiple mobs.

Now I would however take a weaker version (capping @ 20% & 8 seconds) if Over Power generated a stack of Wrath when hitting 3+ mobs. 5 GCDs to re-apply SC so about 12.5 seconds (64% uptime). This would bring the trade off between IB and SC a self heal vs raw damage + higher DR uptime when fighting multiple mobs.