Thread: 2.1 Steel Cyclone, Not Enough

Originally Posted by Strifin

That will probably happen, but as warriors we dont have to always have the 20% buff up, true you should but dont have too. SC's buff is nice and would help getting mobs attention thats about it. Hey at least we can use our stacks then just sitting on them.

Honestly, I thought about it, and even in my optimal scenario given (SC > Infuriate > Overpower > IB > Overpower > etc.) it isn't worth it most of the time. If you are prepared for pickup, and not behind the curb for some reason (drop earlier then expected in T4 coil as example) you'll be better off saving Infuriate for 20% DR back to back. So pickup would just be a Flash > Overpower > IB > Infuriate > Overpower x2 > IB > Overpower > etc. I'm not trying to be argue with you, just thinking out loud. Again, if you are doing progressive raiding, these things do matter and add up.

Again, I'm thinking toward *meaningful* content, where we aren't 3 tiers overgeared and blowing SC for funzies and damage numbers.

*EDIT*

Originally Posted by Vortok

When doing aoe threat, there's not really time to build wrath stacks back up so the few seconds of 20% DR you'd get from using Inner Beast instead would have less of an impact unless you know everything is about to burst you. The Aevis mobs in Stone Vigil come to mind as an example, with their Lunge ability they all do a few seconds in the fight which can get dangerous with three of them at once. Your other cooldowns will likely be sufficient for situations like that anyways, handle stuff case by case, blah blah blah.

Just like Overpower, it'll work best with the Bloodbath + Berserk cooldown pairing (I don't see any reason to ever use them separately anyway). Both to generate more threat while dps go wild with aoe and because the self healing (boosted by Berserk) from hitting several things at once (especially as Steel Cyclone hits harder than Overpower) is a form of pseudo DR. It may not heal you to full, but it does slow the rate that your HP drops giving healers an easier time keeping you up. If the stuff you're fighting can be stunned, the new lower cooldown on our stun will also help to lower the incoming damage without decreasing aoe threat output (assuming you don't need to save it to stun something specific on an aoe pull).

As far as your burst scenario, there isn't a huge amount of predictable burst on a vast majority of *AoE* scenarios. It is the whole point of AoE and picking up multiple low hitting mobs. The challenge comes in the collective damage, and burst mechanics aren't seen much, if at all, because of this. I can't think of anywhere that 20% DR is going to be "less impactful" then a bit of free threat, that won't likely be needed with Overpower threat buff either. Warriors don't generally suffer from these threat issues right now, even with +1 Relics going crazy. Some threat gen is definitely less of an impact then 20% DR, especially when you have to choose between the two for ~20 seconds (unless Infuriate as noted).

While I won't discredit using Bloodbath to help out healers in AoE scenario, it won't come anywhere near 20% DR. Also my suggested change wouldn't impact this. Even without threat modifiers my change to SC would give more reason to use these CDs together, and further help healing for AoE scenario. I mean no offense when I say this, but the fact you are talking about Stone Vigil and single target stuns on AoE pack pulls (as well as bloodbath being meaningful) leads me to believe we are talking different worlds of tanking.. This is what got WAR in trouble from the start.

It'll entirely depend on the threat modifier, which I expect will at least be as good as Overpower as otherwise it'd just be TP/MP free threat that's otherwise outshined by the low level aoe skills. It's main use will be aoe threat, though I could see some WARs potentially using it on single target for a little bit of burst threat (depending on threat modifier).

When doing aoe threat, there's not really time to build wrath stacks back up so the few seconds of 20% DR you'd get from using Inner Beast instead would have less of an impact unless you know everything is about to burst you. The Aevis mobs in Stone Vigil come to mind as an example, with their Lunge ability they all do a few seconds in the fight which can get dangerous with three of them at once. Your other cooldowns will likely be sufficient for situations like that anyways, handle stuff case by case, blah blah blah.

Just like Overpower, it'll work best with the Bloodbath + Berserk cooldown pairing (I don't see any reason to ever use them separately anyway). Both to generate more threat while dps go wild with aoe and because the self healing (boosted by Berserk) from hitting several things at once (especially as Steel Cyclone hits harder than Overpower) is a form of pseudo DR. It may not heal you to full, but it does slow the rate that your HP drops giving healers an easier time keeping you up. If the stuff you're fighting can be stunned, the new lower cooldown on our stun will also help to lower the incoming damage without decreasing aoe threat output (assuming you don't need to save it to stun something specific on an aoe pull).

I agree that adding bonus enmity to SC, while certainly better than nothing, still isn't enough to make it a very compelling button to push. I'll likely use it in the same situations I do now, which is basically for a laugh in easy four-man content.

I'd like to see it changed to heal for 50% of damage dealt, and grant 7% DR per target hit (max 20%) for 6 seconds, effectively becoming an Inner Beast substitute against 3+ targets.

I'd also love to have a way to consistently build Wrath in an AoE situation, but I guess the point of the additional Overpower threat is to allow us time to get some combos off in between rather than just spam it. Since they didn't release any particular numbers, I'll have to actually play around with the 2.1 changes before I can really have an opinion on it.

I think for SC to ever see real use it would need some sort of damage management buff/debuff that increases in benefit the more mobs it hits, scaling so when you hit say 4+ mobs it outshines Inner Beast's DR.

EDIT:
Steel Cyclone
Delivers an attack with a potency of 200 to all nearby enemies and reduces damage taken by 5% for 2 seconds, reduce damage taken by an additional 5% (up to 15%) and increase duration by 2 (up to 8) seconds for each enemy hit beyond the first. Ignores the 35% damage penalty inflicted by Defiance. Can only be executed when Infuriated. All Wrath is lost when used. Additional Effect: Increased Enmity.

(A)
Overpower
Delivers an attack with a potency of 120 to all enemies in a cone before you. 50% chance to grant Wrath when used with Defiance. Chance to grant Wrath is increased by 5% for each enemy hit beyond the first up to an additional 20%. Duration: 30s.
Additional Effect: Increased enmity.

OR

(B)
Overpower
Delivers an attack with a potency of 120 to all enemies in a cone before you. 15% Chance your next Steel Cyclone can be executed without being Infuriated. Duration: 10s.
Additional Effect: Increased enmity.

The stacking buff for Steel Cyclone would have a cap. Totals would come out to 20% DR and 10s Duration.

Overpower would have a 70% chance on use to grant Wrath @ 5+ enemies.

This would probably be the easiest way to balance the 2 albeit it's a little wordy and follows the same plain DR buff.

Please don't take these % as fact, it's just an idea. Giving it a base % and a % on mob hit gives them 2 sides to balance this ability from.

Originally Posted by Phreak

EDIT:
reduce damage taken by an additional 5% and increase duration by 2 seconds for each additional enemy hit.

While it may not be breaking for endgame raids, your proposed additonal 5% defense and 2 second length per mob would be almost too powerful for 4 man content. As an expample warrior in WP could pull to the first bug "ambush", hit SC and approach a 100% damage reduction for nearly 30 seconds (sorry can't remember exactly how many bugs spawn there). The effect would still be going as the next next two groups could be easily pulled within that time frame. I'm not saying your idea is bad, but the added conditional would be too good for the small man stuff.

Originally Posted by Phreak

That's why in later posted we added in a cap to it's benefit, ill edit my first post.

I must've missed that post. Found it. Definately would need to cap it, though.

Originally Posted by Naelle

Bring back the heal on critical and the stun. The only thing broken about 1.0 cyclone was the damage.

I would like that, too.

Originally Posted by mythicrose

While it may not be breaking for endgame raids, your proposed additonal 5% defense and 2 second length per mob would be almost too powerful for 4 man content. As an expample warrior in WP could pull to the first bug "ambush", hit SC and approach a 100% damage reduction for nearly 30 seconds (sorry can't remember exactly how many bugs spawn there). The effect would still be going as the next next two groups could be easily pulled within that time frame. I'm not saying your idea is bad, but the added conditional would be too good for the small man stuff.

That's why in later posts we added in a cap to it's benefit, ill edit my first post.