A plea to reconsider Inner Beast changes

[Leiron]

Math> opinions.
The two of you are wrong thanks.

[Xenobius]

Inner Beast DR component is a band-aid fix.
To solve the Inner Beast damage vs. healing needed problem without turning WARs into re-skinned PLDs, it should use a partially static number mechanic based off your max HP, so ideally it would look like "deals x amount of damage and creates a shield absorbing <15% of your maximum HP +300% of IB damage> points of damage". This way it would scale much better with gear and still be more interesting to play around with Berserk/Maim.

[Jaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaam]

Yeah, with some tuning that's another perfectly viable route they could have taken. VIT scales much better alongside incoming damage than STR does, alleviating any concerns for the foreseeable future.

Math> opinions.
The two of you are wrong thanks.

What math? All I see is blind delusion. The reality as it is very, very rare for IB to result in any loss of healing, the few times it does is either a case of just... not popping it or still going ahead with it because regardless of the minor healing loss, it's often the safer option. It doesn't matter if you effectively lost 200 HP, you negated the risk of getting finished by an auto-attack or maybe even something like MB.

[Paikis]

Math> opinions.
The two of you are wrong thanks.

Funny, my maths is the only stuff I see in this thread. All I ever see is statements that there is maths, maths has happened at some point, and this maths that happened means I'm wrong!

[Leiron]

Funny, my maths is the only stuff I see in this thread. All I ever see is statements that there is maths, maths has happened at some point, and this maths that happened means I'm wrong!

*points at Kitru's signature*
*points at game's signature*

All of the information is there, and shows that Inner beast is a weak cooldown in comparison to the multiude of cooldowns Paladins possess.


@Jam: The math that is in several topics in this forum, the math which is very easily found if you chose to try and contradict yourself than play ignorant. INner beast does not scale nearly as quickly as incoming damage, for it to do so would require it to be more thana 300 potency ability, and because it is reactive, it means that unless you are exceptionally organized, you can contribute to overhealing, which is wasted healing, which is wasted mitigation. Which weakens you because of the cost to your healing bonus.

[Paikis]

All of the information is there, and shows that Inner beast is a weak cooldown in comparison to the multiude of cooldowns Paladins possess.

@Jam: The math that is in several topics in this forum, the math which is very easily found if you chose to try and contradict yourself than play ignorant. INner beast does not scale nearly as quickly as incoming damage, for it to do so would require it to be more thana 300 potency ability, and because it is reactive, it means that unless you are exceptionally organized, you can contribute to overhealing, which is wasted healing, which is wasted mitigation. Which weakens you because of the cost to your healing bonus.

*sigh* OK, I'll bite. Who is game anyways?

The maths in Kitru's signature is comparing DPS between PLDs in Sword Oath and WARs outside of Defiance. What exactly has that got to do with Inner Beast, when you should use it, or it's heal versus the healing bonus of Wrath? For that matter, what has *anything* that has to do with Paladins got to do with using Inner Beast or not? Did you even read the thread, or are you just mindlessly fanboying?

Also, we're back to no maths. Just more statements that maths was done and is somewhere and I'm wrong.

EDIT: I just re-read the thread, and it basically comes down to Kitru twisting situations around to fit his/her view point and then just stating that something is true, with no maths to back it. In the majority of cases, you should be using Inner Beast after the spike, and NOT holding your stacks.

[Leiron]

10 character

*sigh* OK, I'll bite. Who is game anyways?
Also, we're back to no maths. Just more statements that maths was done and is somewhere and I'm wrong.

EDIT: I just re-read the thread, and it basically comes down to Kitru twisting situations around to fit his/her view point and then just stating that something is true, with no maths to back it. In the majority of cases, you should be using Inner Beast after the spike, and NOT holding your stacks.

The math in Kitru's signature is comparing DPS between PLDs in Sword Oath and WARs outside of Defiance. What exactly has that got to do with Inner Beast, when you should use it, or it's heal versus the healing bonus of Wrath? For that matter, what has *anything* that has to do with Paladins got to do with using Inner Beast or not? Did you even read the thread, or are you just mindlessly fanboying?[/quote]
one of the assertions wa sa concern about DPS, Kitru's addresses it.
One of the concerns was the effectiveness of Inner beast, which Ktru also addressed.

I cannot understand why agreeing with someone is fanboying.
I suppose you must be slobbering all over Jam just because he shares the same opinion as you?
If you are going to accuse someone of fanboying, at least try to avoid acting in a way that can be seen as actually fanboying.
"These people will never understand anytihng, blah blah blah, smear smeear smear."


The math has been, the information is present, a reactive heal that is present at the very least, 4 GCD's, is incomparable to the likes of abilities such as Hallowed ground, Sentinel, Rampart and bulwark.
Furthermore, as I stated earlier, it is reactive heal, and wasted healing = lost mitigation.
The damage that IB does also does not scale the same way incoming damage does.
You can easily compare level 35 damage/vitality, then compare t to level 50 BIS damage/vitality and find the ratio becomes smaller and smaller as you gear up

Meaning IB's scale is poor.
The only math you have done is suggest you've done a 2k IB with only SE/Maim which is not possible.

On top of this, you suggested Kitru twisted the situation's around, and thens uggest he provided no mathematical data when it is the opposite. So you either skimmed, ignored the math, or you're just intentionally being ignorant.

[Paikis]

New IB will be great. Paikis.. 460 vit = 7332 HP with Defiance up not 8k. And Symba posted screenshots with MORE STR than you have and not hitting any where near the numbers you claim to hit. I think the majority of WARs are more angry that they spent all that gil on ilevel 70 DPS jewelry and now it's going to be a waste, I mean it was a waste to begin with, but now even more!

Yeah, I was quoting HP when I'm actually tanking... with group VIT buff and food. I sit at 7930 if you want to be 100% precise.

The numbers I claim to hit are absolutely doable. The screenshots posted were with a relic+0 and LESS STR than i had (because STR potions are a thing). I have never claimed I could hit 3.7k without blowing everything, I simply stated that it is my highest hit.

Gryphonskin will be a waste after these changes that is for sure, damage simply wont matter anymore. Right now however, they are absolutely worth getting.

Inner Beast was only fun to see how big of a crit you could get with it and letting rip without infuriate up always felt dumb to me.
<snip>
Don't let those big pretty numbers deceive you into thinking the move was in any way useful.

Those big pretty numbers are absolutely worth using. If you go back a page or two, i have even provided the math to show it. Kitru is about the same level of gear I am, so he should be getting 2k+ Inner Beasts fairly regularly, which means the heal on his Inner Beast is more than enough to cover the 7% extra healing he could be getting from those Wrath stacks, even on Twintania he just wont admit it.

one of the assertions wa sa concern about DPS, Kitru's addresses it.
One of the concerns was the effectiveness of Inner beast, which Ktru also addressed.

<snip>

The math has been, the information is present, a reactive heal that is present at the very least, 4 GCD's, is incomparable to the likes of abilities such as Hallowed ground, Sentinel, Rampart and bulwark.
Furthermore, as I stated earlier, it is reactive heal, and wasted healing = lost mitigation.
The damage that IB does also does not scale the same way incoming damage does.
You can easily compare level 35 damage/vitality, then compare t to level 50 BIS damage/vitality and find the ratio becomes smaller and smaller as you gear up

Meaning IB's scale is poor.
The only math you have done is suggest you've done a 2k IB with only SE/Maim which is not possible.

On top of this, you suggested Kitru twisted the situation's around, and thens uggest he provided no mathematical data when it is the opposite. So you either skimmed, ignored the math, or you're just intentionally being ignorant.

Link to this math, or it doesn't exist. And no, Kitru's sig link doesn't count because it does not address anything we've been discussing. No one cares about the DPS difference between PLD/WAR. Kitru did not discuss Inner Beast at all.

On content where Inner Beast usage matters, your healers will NOT be getting you to the point of overhealing being an issue, and if they are, then the healing bonus is going to be overhealing anyway and the whole issue is a wash.

I don't really care, as with the current situation I'm able to tank everything just fine, and with the 'new' Inner beast, I will be able to tank things even easier. It just irks me that people are trying to tell me I can't do things that I clearly have done.

Anyways, I'm done with this thread now, I'll keep doing exactly what I said I can do, and you people can keep telling yourselves that it's impossible.

[Jaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaam]

stuff.

Against my better judgment I went back and read through the post in Kitru's sig. Absolutely no discussion or math on the subject of IB and its impact on healing (only that not using it "on CD" is a DPS loss, which is obviously indisputable). Either it is buried away somewhere in a 90 page thread filled with absolute garbage or it's elsewhere. Regardless of how it even functions now, 2.1 is shifting the healing potency to defiance itself, so there will be absolutely no trade off for expending your wrath on IB whether its for a 900 potency heal or 300 potency + DR. Whichever train of thought you follow you can go back to playing WAR as intended.

[Leiron]

Against my better judgment I went back and read through the post in Kitru's sig. Absolutely no discussion or math on the subject of IB and its impact on healing (only that not using it "on CD" is a DPS loss, which is obviously indisputable). Either it is buried away somewhere in a 90 page thread filled with absolute garbage or it's elsewhere. Regardless of how it even functions now, 2.1 is shifting the healing potency to defiance itself, so there will be absolutely no trade off for expending your wrath on IB whether its for a 900 potency heal or 300 potency + DR. Whichever train of thought you follow you can go back to playing WAR as intended.

Except that it makes no sense for there to be a cost for spending Wrath.
Your job is to be a TANK.
Utilizing Wrath, which takes away from tanking capability to take hits, is BAD design given that there is no proper reward.
You get a single instant helal and that is it.
Just because you mitigated the first mountain buster, doesn't mean you're stopping the next major hits.
Or on ADS where you have more than 3 stacks and you get repelling cannoned, then vacuum waved/ballasted all at once is brutal.