A plea to reconsider Inner Beast changes

[Jaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaam]

stuff.

Against my better judgment I went back and read through the post in Kitru's sig. Absolutely no discussion or math on the subject of IB and its impact on healing (only that not using it "on CD" is a DPS loss, which is obviously indisputable). Either it is buried away somewhere in a 90 page thread filled with absolute garbage or it's elsewhere. Regardless of how it even functions now, 2.1 is shifting the healing potency to defiance itself, so there will be absolutely no trade off for expending your wrath on IB whether its for a 900 potency heal or 300 potency + DR. Whichever train of thought you follow you can go back to playing WAR as intended.

[Leiron]

10 character

*sigh* OK, I'll bite. Who is game anyways?
Also, we're back to no maths. Just more statements that maths was done and is somewhere and I'm wrong.

EDIT: I just re-read the thread, and it basically comes down to Kitru twisting situations around to fit his/her view point and then just stating that something is true, with no maths to back it. In the majority of cases, you should be using Inner Beast after the spike, and NOT holding your stacks.

The math in Kitru's signature is comparing DPS between PLDs in Sword Oath and WARs outside of Defiance. What exactly has that got to do with Inner Beast, when you should use it, or it's heal versus the healing bonus of Wrath? For that matter, what has *anything* that has to do with Paladins got to do with using Inner Beast or not? Did you even read the thread, or are you just mindlessly fanboying?[/quote]
one of the assertions wa sa concern about DPS, Kitru's addresses it.
One of the concerns was the effectiveness of Inner beast, which Ktru also addressed.

I cannot understand why agreeing with someone is fanboying.
I suppose you must be slobbering all over Jam just because he shares the same opinion as you?
If you are going to accuse someone of fanboying, at least try to avoid acting in a way that can be seen as actually fanboying.
"These people will never understand anytihng, blah blah blah, smear smeear smear."


The math has been, the information is present, a reactive heal that is present at the very least, 4 GCD's, is incomparable to the likes of abilities such as Hallowed ground, Sentinel, Rampart and bulwark.
Furthermore, as I stated earlier, it is reactive heal, and wasted healing = lost mitigation.
The damage that IB does also does not scale the same way incoming damage does.
You can easily compare level 35 damage/vitality, then compare t to level 50 BIS damage/vitality and find the ratio becomes smaller and smaller as you gear up

Meaning IB's scale is poor.
The only math you have done is suggest you've done a 2k IB with only SE/Maim which is not possible.

On top of this, you suggested Kitru twisted the situation's around, and thens uggest he provided no mathematical data when it is the opposite. So you either skimmed, ignored the math, or you're just intentionally being ignorant.

[Grembo]

Inner Beast was only fun to see how big of a crit you could get with it and letting rip without infuriate up always felt dumb to me.

About Titan's Mountain Buster, ToB and Second Wind was always enough to get me through this, if I held onto my wrath the healers could do their job from there fine.

Sure if you're overgeared for content then it was a fun skill to use but on paper the changes to wrath, defiance and IB itself sound a lot more useful. Don't let those big pretty numbers deceive you into thinking the move was in any way useful.

[Ipkonfig]

New IB will be great. Paikis.. 460 vit = 7332 HP with Defiance up not 8k. And Symba posted screenshots with MORE STR than you have and not hitting any where near the numbers you claim to hit. I think the majority of WARs are more angry that they spent all that gil on ilevel 70 DPS jewelry and now it's going to be a waste, I mean it was a waste to begin with, but now even more!

[Leiron]

Against my better judgment I went back and read through the post in Kitru's sig. Absolutely no discussion or math on the subject of IB and its impact on healing (only that not using it "on CD" is a DPS loss, which is obviously indisputable). Either it is buried away somewhere in a 90 page thread filled with absolute garbage or it's elsewhere. Regardless of how it even functions now, 2.1 is shifting the healing potency to defiance itself, so there will be absolutely no trade off for expending your wrath on IB whether its for a 900 potency heal or 300 potency + DR. Whichever train of thought you follow you can go back to playing WAR as intended.

Except that it makes no sense for there to be a cost for spending Wrath.
Your job is to be a TANK.
Utilizing Wrath, which takes away from tanking capability to take hits, is BAD design given that there is no proper reward.
You get a single instant helal and that is it.
Just because you mitigated the first mountain buster, doesn't mean you're stopping the next major hits.
Or on ADS where you have more than 3 stacks and you get repelling cannoned, then vacuum waved/ballasted all at once is brutal.

[Paikis]

New IB will be great. Paikis.. 460 vit = 7332 HP with Defiance up not 8k. And Symba posted screenshots with MORE STR than you have and not hitting any where near the numbers you claim to hit. I think the majority of WARs are more angry that they spent all that gil on ilevel 70 DPS jewelry and now it's going to be a waste, I mean it was a waste to begin with, but now even more!

Yeah, I was quoting HP when I'm actually tanking... with group VIT buff and food. I sit at 7930 if you want to be 100% precise.

The numbers I claim to hit are absolutely doable. The screenshots posted were with a relic+0 and LESS STR than i had (because STR potions are a thing). I have never claimed I could hit 3.7k without blowing everything, I simply stated that it is my highest hit.

Gryphonskin will be a waste after these changes that is for sure, damage simply wont matter anymore. Right now however, they are absolutely worth getting.

Inner Beast was only fun to see how big of a crit you could get with it and letting rip without infuriate up always felt dumb to me.
<snip>
Don't let those big pretty numbers deceive you into thinking the move was in any way useful.

Those big pretty numbers are absolutely worth using. If you go back a page or two, i have even provided the math to show it. Kitru is about the same level of gear I am, so he should be getting 2k+ Inner Beasts fairly regularly, which means the heal on his Inner Beast is more than enough to cover the 7% extra healing he could be getting from those Wrath stacks, even on Twintania he just wont admit it.

one of the assertions wa sa concern about DPS, Kitru's addresses it.
One of the concerns was the effectiveness of Inner beast, which Ktru also addressed.

<snip>

The math has been, the information is present, a reactive heal that is present at the very least, 4 GCD's, is incomparable to the likes of abilities such as Hallowed ground, Sentinel, Rampart and bulwark.
Furthermore, as I stated earlier, it is reactive heal, and wasted healing = lost mitigation.
The damage that IB does also does not scale the same way incoming damage does.
You can easily compare level 35 damage/vitality, then compare t to level 50 BIS damage/vitality and find the ratio becomes smaller and smaller as you gear up

Meaning IB's scale is poor.
The only math you have done is suggest you've done a 2k IB with only SE/Maim which is not possible.

On top of this, you suggested Kitru twisted the situation's around, and thens uggest he provided no mathematical data when it is the opposite. So you either skimmed, ignored the math, or you're just intentionally being ignorant.

Link to this math, or it doesn't exist. And no, Kitru's sig link doesn't count because it does not address anything we've been discussing. No one cares about the DPS difference between PLD/WAR. Kitru did not discuss Inner Beast at all.

On content where Inner Beast usage matters, your healers will NOT be getting you to the point of overhealing being an issue, and if they are, then the healing bonus is going to be overhealing anyway and the whole issue is a wash.

I don't really care, as with the current situation I'm able to tank everything just fine, and with the 'new' Inner beast, I will be able to tank things even easier. It just irks me that people are trying to tell me I can't do things that I clearly have done.

Anyways, I'm done with this thread now, I'll keep doing exactly what I said I can do, and you people can keep telling yourselves that it's impossible.

[Giantbane]

A well timed IB (just before Rock Buster) will mitigate a bit under 2k from RB, a bit over 1k from auto, and around 4-5k from MB. Lets say 7.5k total. That's around 1500 from the DR and 333 from the unbuffed IB for a total of 1800~1850. A buffed/crit IB in 2.0 is around 2250 in just DL gear/Garuda Axe. Depending on the order of operations (when does the DR apply? Does it factor Virus, Rain of Death and 2.1 Storm's Path before or after? How about SS and Adlo?) it could get even worse.

You can't guarantee a crit and buffs are not always up for the MB. This will always be up for MB, it always works the same (for the most part), you can stack it with other mitigation effects to make it a little better (or a lot in the case of vengeance) and best of all you don't lose your 15% healing to do it (now 20%!). You don't get the same feeling of self sufficiency by doing a big crit for a bunch of HP, but it's vastly better for Titan when working with a healer.

[NoelNoel]

I agree with OP about IB. I'm really not happy with the changes brought to WAR to the point I'm wondering if my full hero set will ever be of any use to me again after the changes are brought... It seems we're becoming another damage mitigation tank, and generally the whole thing feels more simple. I doubt WAR was originally planned to be a tank as safe as PLD, but rather a sub tank, and I was fine with that. Never had any problem tanking coil... All the changes I was expecting are nowhere to be found, instead we're getting more aggro, when it's completely useless, we are already the best at generating aggro. All WAR needed was a dmg buff to steel cyclone and another defensive skill. I have so much fun with IB as it is, the nerf to it does feel like a loss of identity. The only change I like is Holmgang, that will be useful.
That said, I will need to wait and actually play the new WAR to know for sure, but considering I like it the way it is now, I'm very worried about the changes.

[Giantbane]

I have come to this conclusion as well.

I have posted a screenshot previously of me hitting 1194 Inner Beast without the group STR buff. But I can't be arsed digging it out for people who wont be convinced anyway. I'm sure it's just because I'm an ego-driven elitist who is just being carried by his healers. Whatever.

Anyways, yes I would prefer seeing the DR put onto Steel Cyclone. That would give us a choice, do I want the huge heal? Or do I want the damage reduction?

It's easy to be skeptical. Look up a few posts and you'll see symba doing 985 crit with berserk active. She has about 35 more STR than you and more DET. You *do* have bravura +1 and she only has bravura so that's an advantage to you. However, I've heard that's about worth 8str points, that only cuts the STR gap in half (and does nothing for DET). How did you manage to do an extra 200 damage? That seems unlikely.

I wanted to test this further, I also have a +1, threw on a couple dps acc and was able to push my STR to 377 and DET to 227 (11 and 10 less than you respectively). Then I went and hit a striking dummy for a long time (more than 30min, hitting 1-2-3 while reading something else). Mixed in berserks, even tested out some Hi potions of STR to push my STR higher than yours (to 404). With my base stats, I was hitting in the 400-440 (non-crit) with maim & SE up. If I used the STR pots I pushed as high as 480 (non-crit). STR pots, berserk and crit I was able to push as high as 700 (1050 crit). So I have no idea how you managed an 1194 inner beast unless you had all your points allocated into STR at the time. Even if you did, that only gives you 418 STR, which is only 14 more strength the me using the pot. So it still doesn't make any sense, 14 STR shouldn't = 150 more damage, even under berserk and crit.

Using your Wrath stacks will heal you for anywhere between 1k and up to 4k (my highest so far is 3.7k and I average 1.8-2k without Berserk)

1.8-2k without berserk, how is that possible. You need to be hitting 600 dmg+ without berserk. By pushing my STR higher than what you currently have displayed (melded acc and all), I couldn't touch 500 damage without a crit. And without IB i'm not critting very often so you can't count on that or call it average.

If you're getting 2k out of Inner Beast (I haven't seen one for much less than this in quite some time. No crit, no Berserk, just Maim and SE).

Again, how is this possible. You only have 11 more STR than i'm testing with and 10 more DET. That's not enough to justify getting 150+ more out of your inner beast. Even with the group buff, is it giving you something like 75 STR to make that possible?!

Incidentally, i took my Gryphonskin stuff off and went and smacked a dummy. 450-500 damage, no crits, no berserk. 1.5k healed.

Ok, now this is HIGHLY suspect. Taking off your accessories, will drop you down 45 STR and 20 DET. This drops you down to 343 STR and 217 DET and lower stats than I am testing with. And yet somehow you were able to smack the same dummy as I was for more damage?! That doesn't make any sense whatsoever. To test it out, I swapped out some gear to give me 342 STR and 225 DET. I was hitting for mostly 380. How exactly do you account for the extra 100 damage you're claiming?

[Jaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaam]

As I posted in the OP, I think 1500-3400 IB range is the most feasible amount you can work for (30 VIT, full i90 on left and 9 STR/10 VIT accessories). Dropping VIT allocations for STR could push it further, but you're not likely to be able to tank Twintania consistently by dropping your VIT so low (though it would be plenty for Titan and T1-4 and OTing Twin). The fact that STR potions were ever even brought up at all should show how silly this has gotten. Regardless of his exaggerated claims I noticed Paikis threw up a thread on reddit covering the subject of IB and potential lost healing (with genuine IB numbers, lol) here, if anyone wishes to read it. I wish I had gone ahead and made some in depth posts on the subject, since with 2.1 just around the corner it is kind of irrelevant, but oh well. There is some merit to holding on to your stacks (and it's easy to see where the thought stems from) but being able to differentiate when you should and shouldn't expend your stacks is key to being a good WAR. It's unfortunate a large portion of the playerbase were unable to do this (or just blindly believed the misconception they heard) and our class is being simplified for it, but I don't think anyone will be too shaken given it's a substantial buff for us in the end.