Issues with Coil: Statics v. The Rest of Us

[Haruka-Akemi]

Coil in df is a good way for new players to get used to the first 2 turns
Maybe people is against dutyfinder and maybe hate it
But if duty finder worked for me to learn titan i bet some
People will learn something from a run or two
Of course it will be epic fails and wipes but that is just part of the game
If u dont like losing or wiping go play something else

And the loot i dont give a flying duck about loot lol
If i get stuff cool if i dont is cool too

[Ronzeru]

Greedy. Casual players are getting an entire raid for them to do in DF next month. Crystal Tower. Thats for you. Shoo. Leave our Coil alone. Go on now. Shoo.

[Ranzan]

Then how will ppl get experience with coils if the ONLY way is to have a group. People dont want it in DF but they expect people to have experience with it before hand. Hmmm sounds like some people are in a rock and a hard place unless watching videos counts as experience(not). Yea Endgame was not designed well.

[GilbertLapine]

Greedy. Casual players are getting an entire raid for them to do in DF next month. Crystal Tower. Thats for you. Shoo. Leave our Coil alone. Go on now. Shoo.

/facepalm

Your response gives me the impression you neither read the OP, nor understand what this thread is about.

[Nihility]

is this actually a problem?
On behemoth I see people making coil groups for 1-4 all the time and often successfully

It's not really all that inaccessible either. My group had a few people in AK green gear doing it just fine, just because pugs think you need full relic gear for wanderer's palace doesn't mean over-gearing is necessary

If they don't put in anything that needs high levels of teamwork the hardcore crowd will ditch in a big hurry and they are really the backbone of mmo communities. Much like how the pro-tournies are what keep LoL so popular, online games need an upper echelon to aspire towards

[GilbertLapine]

How far have you done coil? You don't have a single achievement in coil yet you're lecturing people up to T5 on it's difficulty and what's possible. If you used a theoretical DF on coil you would be engaging in a massive waste of time and it's fair to tell people that as advice. Letting people shoot themselves in the foot with DF would be denying them progress more than just telling them they need to find a group.

And as for pre-mades I would never fill a spot with the DF on coil, and I am often outside my static in pug T5 groups. You really cannot carry coil and I'd count on most experienced people never using the DF, as they know if there is no quality control it is a waste of time.

Seriously, turn 4 easier than titan? That is complete nonsense.

I've run through coil turn 4 phase 6. Sadly, the four times I've run T4 the party hasn't had enough gear to meet the DPS check on the last two dreadnauts. I've personally stopped messing with it for the last month or so waiting for players catch up in gear. So... yeah. Really not that hard, just gear-centric. It's getting easier and easier to do as people get more of their allagan and AF2 equips, as well.

Doesn't mean it's not fun, but it certainly isn't difficult.. unless you consider matching farmed stats on a spreadsheet difficult, I guess.

Like really... whats challenging? The bugs feeds? The add switch? The rook targetting? The Dreadnaut DPS race? At least Titan forces you to move around and think on your feet, T4 you move like 3, maybe 4 times to memorized, choreographed positions and just have to watch your enmity. Not that I'm saying I want more 'dancing', but there's very little in the way of creative and challenging game mechanics, and a lot of memorization and standing around. It's the same thing you do in most progression dungeons just with higher stats... yipee..?!

The only reason it's even Coil (T1-4, can't comment on T5) is remotely difficult right now is the fact that most of us are running it equipped with gear thats 20 iLvs below the expectation for the dungeon (i.e. iLv70 darklight or crafted for an iLv 80-90 dungeon). I'm sure even Brayflox would prove 'challenging' if you ran it in level 10 gear.

[SolidSok]

I'm not sure if this point was addressed in this post yet. I'm assuming it wasn't as I did not see it edited into the first post, but in regards to a loot lockout, how would the loot distribution be fair for the ones who have already cleared Coil compared to the new person(s) going in?

To clarify: Let's say A small Free Company consisting of 11 people do Coil and clear Turns 1-5. The initial 8 people have had a chance at 8 different pieces of equipment from the entirety of that week's Coil run. Those 8 pieces would be distributed among the 8 members.
Now let's say 2 of the extra members want to do Coil as well. 6 of the members from the previous group help out and they clear turns 1-5. The loot distribution is different here. 6 members have been locked out of loot meaning those 8 pieces are going to be distributed among the new 2 members.
Then if the last person wants to do Coil, they gain access to 8 pieces of equipment by default (assuming only the FC helps them).

With this in mind, there is motivation to not be in the first group to go to Coil. After all, Why would one choose to lower the chances of getting so much excellent equipment?

Now this would be a dirty tactic, and probably wouldn't fly too well in the FC, and this is assuming that the members are strictly within the FC, but still I'm not sure how a loot lockout system could address this fairly.

Sorry if this point has already been addressed. There are just so many pages already in here xD

[GilbertLapine]

is this actually a problem?
On behemoth I see people making coil groups for 1-4 all the time and often successfully

It's not really all that inaccessible either. My group had a few people in AK green gear doing it just fine, just because pugs think you need full relic gear for wanderer's palace doesn't mean over-gearing is necessary

If they don't put in anything that needs high levels of teamwork the hardcore crowd will ditch in a big hurry and they are really the backbone of mmo communities. Much like how the pro-tournies are what keep LoL so popular, online games need an upper echelon to aspire towards

Well, the most teamwork-heavy turn I've played thus far is T2 with the allagan rot handoffs. T1 and T4 mostly boil down to tanks handling positioning while everyone else turrets their heals or DPS.

As far as the accessibility though, it's not a gear issue and that isn't what this thread is about. The problem is that making Coil lock players for participation, instead of loot, drives rifts into friendships and FCs, and crowds out many players who aren't interested in joining an FC of unknowns just to get a Coil static.

I think it's great for the dungeon to require teamwork, and indeed I'd love to see more team-play-oriented game mechanics, but forcing players to go in the same party, with the same people, at the same time each week does not qualify as 'teamwork' in the scope of a video game. I think if people want to do that and feel is brings value to their game time they should have every right to, but people should be able to enjoy the game at their leisure, not at the mercy of their FC.

[Churchill]

I don't see what the issue is. Coil is currently meant to be the most difficult content; it makes sense that you can't just rope together a bunch of nobodies and expect to win with any consistency. If you want to wait for your friends, wait for your friends. If you want to run coil while they catch up, nothing's stopping you from leaving your current static party once your friends are geared up.

What coil is meant to be and what it is are very different things.

[GilbertLapine]

I'm not sure if this point was addressed in this post yet. I'm assuming it wasn't as I did not see it edited into the first post, but in regards to a loot lockout, how would the loot distribution be fair for the ones who have already cleared Coil compared to the new person(s) going in?
To clarify: Let's say A small Free Company consisting of 11 people do Coil and clear Turns 1-5. The initial 8 people have had a chance at 8 different pieces of equipment from the entirety of that week's Coil run. Those 8 pieces would be distributed among the 8 members.
Now let's say 2 of the extra members want to do Coil as well. 6 of the members from the previous group help out and they clear turns 1-5. The loot distribution is different here. 6 members have been locked out of loot meaning those 8 pieces are going to be distributed among the new 2 members.
Then if the last person wants to do Coil, they gain access to 8 pieces of equipment by default (assuming only the FC helps them).

With this in mind, there is motivation to not be in the first group to go to Coil. After all, Why would one choose to lower the chances of getting so much excellent equipment?

Now this would be a dirty tactic, and probably wouldn't fly too well in the FC, and this is assuming that the members are strictly within the FC, but still I'm not sure how a loot lockout system could address this fairly.

Sorry if this point has already been addressed. There are just so many pages already in here xD

That's something the FC would have to address internally. I doubt it would be an issue in the long run as no one in your hypothetical would want to be in group 1 and everyone would want to be in group 2. Not putting too much thought into it, I'd say the best bet would be to rotate members through depending on who happened to be available that week, and supplement either one or both groups with outside players from friendly FCs and linkshells, the player search that will soon be implemented(?), or duty finder if it were available.

If they were only willing to run with others within their FC, and assuming all FC members were on-board with running the instance a second time for nothing but tomestones, they would just need to rotate players in and out of each group depending on availability and who was in which group the previous week or weeks.