Say No to auto-attack!

[Honz]

Honestly I couldn't care what kind of system they implemented if it meant getting rid of the stamina bar.

Need restrictions on spells and abilities to stop people from spamming non stop? Stamina bar is not a solution. A real solution is cool downs. Shared cool downs between certain spells and abilities, longer cool downs and recast times, longer cast times etc.

Since it has been determined that the stamina bar is being removed, it also creates a few issues with the current system.

Haste and slow as of the current system affects how fast or slow the stamina bar regens. If the bar was removed how would those effects play a role? What would stop a heavy swing spamming marauder from hitting just as fast as a light stabbing gladiator? Obvious answer is auto attack and the developers deemed it so.

[Seikninkuru]

Honestly I couldn't care what kind of system they implemented if it meant getting rid of the stamina bar.

Need restrictions on spells and abilities to stop people from spamming non stop? Stamina bar is not a solution. A real solution is cool downs. Shared cool downs between certain spells and abilities, longer cool downs and recast times, longer cast times etc.

Since it has been determined that the stamina bar is being removed, it also creates a few issues with the current system.

Haste and slow as of the current system affects how fast or slow the stamina bar regens. If the bar was removed how would those effects play a role? What would stop a heavy swing spamming marauder from hitting just as fast as a light stabbing gladiator? Obvious answer is auto attack and the developers deemed it so.

i lol'd, stamina makes more sense than a cooldown.

[Physic]

Honestly I couldn't care what kind of system they implemented if it meant getting rid of the stamina bar.

Need restrictions on spells and abilities to stop people from spamming non stop? Stamina bar is not a solution. A real solution is cool downs. Shared cool downs between certain spells and abilities, longer cool downs and recast times, longer cast times etc.

Since it has been determined that the stamina bar is being removed, it also creates a few issues with the current system.

Haste and slow as of the current system affects how fast or slow the stamina bar regens. If the bar was removed how would those effects play a role? What would stop a heavy swing spamming marauder from hitting just as fast as a light stabbing gladiator? Obvious answer is auto attack and the developers deemed it so.

it wasnt about restrictions on spam, it was about choosing what skill to use wisely, cooldowns in no way simulates that.

[Honz]

it wasnt about restrictions on spam, it was about choosing what skill to use wisely, cooldowns in no way simulates that.

Not spamming = choosing skills wisely

From a dev post
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...l=1#post155331

Because of the restrictions of the stamina gauge, I can't execute actions with various special effects when I need to.
We are planning to remove the stamina gauge. Like before, TP and MP abilities will still be affected by recast times. There will also be cooldown times between actions.

apparently the developers also think we need cooldowns in place of lol stamina bars.

[Physic]

Not spamming = choosing skills wisely

From a dev post
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...l=1#post155331



apparently the developers also think we need cooldowns in place of lol stamina bars.

We know the developers decided to remove stamina, thats because stamina doesnt make sense with auto attack.

Stamina makes you choose skills wisely because all of your skills are using the same pool. with cooldowns its not a question of should i use this skill, or this skill based on the situation or my role, but rather i should use them both, because i its on cooldown anyhow.
before you choose to provoke, or attack based on what you think your hate level is. in cooldown system you should do both, there is no reason not to. Which is better is up to the player, but its a fundamentally different choice, which has different strategies and effects.
Stamina isnt about stopping spam, its about making you choose which skills are most important

[Honz]

We know the developers decided to remove stamina, thats because stamina doesnt make sense with auto attack.

Stamina makes you choose skills wisely because all of your skills are using the same pool. with cooldowns its not a question of should i use this skill, or this skill based on the situation or my role, but rather i should use them both, because i its on cooldown anyhow.
before you choose to provoke, or attack based on what you think your hate level is. in cooldown system you should do both, there is no reason not to. Which is better is up to the player, but its a fundamentally different choice, which has different strategies and effects.
Stamina isnt about stopping spam, its about making you choose which skills are most important

Let me explain how the current system works.

The Stamina Bar acts like a universal cool down on all abilities. You can only regen stamina by waiting, the pace at which stamina regens can be affected by the status effects of Haste or Slow. The reason why stamina acts as a universal cool down timer is because every single action during combat requires stamina with the exception of a few abilities, so when you don't have stamina you have to wait to for more stamina to perform that action.

In a leve party situation or typical SP grind party the hindrance of the stamina bar is not noticeable because the battles are short. Now in longer battles like NMs, the pace at which the stamina bar regens is much more noticeable especially for DoW classes because they rely on a 1,1,1,1, spam to gain TP.

When choosing to use skills 3 factors come into play, first is desired effect (what the skill actually does), next is TP/MP cost (both of which aren't a big factor but considered during longer battles), lastly is stamina cost. We also have individual cooldown timers for all abilities but how often do we take that into consideration? Almost never because stamina plays a much bigger role as a pseudo cooldown timer.

Obviously a good player will use his abilities as necessary and most of the time as effective counters. ie. Tank provokes or taunts when he has lost enmity on the target, only thing that should stop the tank from provoking is the ability's individual cooldown but with the current system stamina will hold you back. Most gladiators who have tanked the higher tier NMs will probably agree that because of provoke and taunts high stamina costs, stamina issues makes it hard for tanks to participate in powerful BRs. A gladiator without invigorate II and pikemanship will never be able to perform effectively in BRs. Since parties have been reduced to 8-man, even the tank must participate for a full BR and yes it does help 1k Riot blades will make enmity stick on you.

[Physic]

Let me explain how the current system works.

The Stamina Bar acts like a universal cool down on all abilities. You can only regen stamina by waiting, the pace at which stamina regens can be affected by the status effects of Haste or Slow. The reason why stamina acts as a universal cool down timer is because every single action during combat requires stamina with the exception of a few abilities, so when you don't have stamina you have to wait to for more stamina to perform that action.

In a leve party situation or typical SP grind party the hindrance of the stamina bar is not noticeable because the battles are short. Now in longer battles like NMs, the pace at which the stamina bar regens is much more noticeable especially for DoW classes because they rely on a 1,1,1,1, spam to gain TP.

When choosing to use skills 3 factors come into play, first is desired effect (what the skill actually does), next is TP/MP cost (both of which aren't a big factor but considered during longer battles), lastly is stamina cost. We also have individual cooldown timers for all abilities but how often do we take that into consideration? Almost never because stamina plays a much bigger role as a pseudo cooldown timer.

Obviously a good player will use his abilities as necessary and most of the time as effective counters. ie. Tank provokes or taunts when he has lost enmity on the target, only thing that should stop the tank from provoking is the ability's individual cooldown but with the current system stamina will hold you back. Most gladiators who have tanked the higher tier NMs will probably agree that because of provoke and taunts high stamina costs, stamina issues makes it hard for tanks to participate in powerful BRs. A gladiator without invigorate II and pikemanship will never be able to perform effectively in BRs. Since parties have been reduced to 8-man, even the tank must participate for a full BR and yes it does help 1k Riot blades will make enmity stick on you.

what should stop the tank from provoking, is that he did way too many regular attacks earlier, or popped a weaponskill. How well a tank cant tank and do other things with stamina is a measure of skill and tactics, in cooldown system, its a plan of a sequence of rotations ahead of time. its a totally different mechanic.

the reason it isnt a universal coold down is because you dont stop all actions, you can choose to chain together actions or you can space them out. also different skills have different values, a taunt is worth 2 attacks, which do you choose? cooldown system you dont choose between the two, you do both. Its intrinsicly different, whether you like it or not, dont think its the same things, or serves the same purpose, or is the same game mechanic.

the fact that you have to wait, doesnt make it like a cooldown.

[Honz]

what should stop the tank from provoking, is that he did way too many regular attacks earlier, or popped a weaponskill. How well a tank cant tank and do other things with stamina is a measure of skill and tactics, in cooldown system, its a plan of a sequence of rotations ahead of time. its a totally different mechanic.

the reason it isnt a universal coold down is because you dont stop all actions, you can choose to chain together actions or you can space them out. also different skills have different values, a taunt is worth 2 attacks, which do you choose? cooldown system you dont choose between the two, you do both. Its intrinsicly different, whether you like it or not, dont think its the same things, or serves the same purpose, or is the same game mechanic.

the fact that you have to wait, doesnt make it like a cooldown.

Feels like I'm wasting my time trying to explain the system to you. Since you adamantly believe the stamina bar does not act as a pseudo cool down timer then do so.

Believe it or not the developers think the same way I do and are going to increase or decrease cool downs on abilities to balance out a non stamina bar system.

Edit: Ok you don't know how a universal cool down works, don't make assumptions about game mechanics in which you have vague knowledge of. Proposing a hypothetical situation in which a gladiator has to choose provoke over other skills doesn't justify your conclusions. When a gladiator has to provoke there are more variables in play than just the stamina bar. (I really don't want to get into a detailed explanation of how tanking roles work in the current FFXIV.) Point is stamina bar mechanics work similar to a universal cool down timer.

ie. can't use another skill because your universal cool down timer still have 2 seconds left. can't use another skill because you don't have enough stamina therefore you have to wait 2 seconds. They both produce the same effect. Obviously with a full stamina bar you can get off a provoke and a taunt without waiting whereas a universal cool down timer wouldn't allow it. But you see thats not the point here, in longer battles is where you begin to understand how the stamina bar is like a universal cool down timer.