Nostalgia

[Reslin]

But who is that person to say that they are forgetting this? Perhaps the person they are talking to never felt that way. I never did in XI, certainly. In fact I've never felt that way in any game since I was a child. You are in effect being told 'your views aren't valid because you aren't remembering it properly'

Except nostalgia does exist. Even if you could play vanilla FF11 and still enjoy it 100% doesn't mean that nostalgia simply doesn't exist. The word exists for a reason even if you are the exception. I typically will tell someone they're being nostalgic and point out the faults. If the person denies those faults from existing they're being blinded by nostalgia. If they acknowledge those faults but claim that it gave the game more character and it's partly why they enjoyed the game then my comment about them being nostalgic isn't valid. Instead, I'd point out that their opinion isn't shared by the majority.

[Aegis]

I typically will tell someone they're being nostalgic and point out the faults.

You couldn't simply point out the faults without making the assumption of nostalgia? You don't know if they are being nostalgic. It's incredibly patronising and rude.

[Reslin]

You couldn't simply point out the faults without making the assumption of nostalgia? You don't know if they are being nostalgic. It's incredibly patronising and rude.

Nostalgia is the most common cause of people's arguments. Take this for an example:

Every new generation the older generation talks about how much their time was better. Many will fight vehemently that it's not nostalgia. Their time was better. The youths have become more rebellious, people are nastier, the music isn't as good, and the mmo's in the past were better. People said this about the 00's, 90's, 80's, and so on. Each time the new generation saying that THEIR time was better. You're repeating the same old story here. You can continue to argue that FF11 is better than how mmo's are run today but even the devs believe the mmos of the now have been the result of "progress." It is nostalgia if you can't enjoy what's in the now because you're too stuck on how it was done in the past. Especially if you can't appreciate the quality of life achievements that have been made since then.

No, I'm not saying this is how you are. It's merely an example of how nostalgia is very relevant. The whole debate about how mmo's used to have a massive grind to level reminds me of the joking comments of "Back in my day we had to walk up snow covered hills for 8 miles." If that was true there's a reason we no longer have to do that now. (The if that was true is in response to the snowy hills.) I don't want to walk 8 miles to get somewhere in the snow nor do I want to spend several months killing one mob at a time in a full group with the knowledge that one moron can ruin hours of progress/time.

[Aegis]

Nostalgia is the most common cause of people's arguments. Take this for an example:

Every new generation the older generation talks about how much their time was better. Many will fight vehemently that it's not nostalgia. Their time was better. The youths have become more rebellious, people are nastier, the music isn't as good, and the mmo's in the past were better. People said this about the 00's, 90's, 80's, and so on. Each time the new generation saying that THEIR time was better. You're repeating the same old story here. You can continue to argue that FF11 is better than how mmo's are run today but even the devs believe the mmos of the now have been the result of "progress." It is nostalgia if you can't enjoy what's in the now because you're too stuck on how it was done in the past. Especially if you can't appreciate the quality of life achievements that have been made since then.

No, I'm not saying this is how you are. It's merely an example of how nostalgia is very relevant. The whole debate about how mmo's used to have a massive grind to level reminds me of the joking comments of "Back in my day we had to walk up snow covered hills for 8 miles." If that was true there's a reason we no longer have to do that now.

Indeed: Socrates:
“Our youth now love luxury. They have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for their elders and love chatter in place of exercise; they no longer rise when elders enter the room; they contradict their parents, chatter before company; gobble up their food and tyrannize their teachers.”

However, if someone says they preferred Dexter season 7 to Season 8 and you disagree do you automatically follow up with "No you don't, you're being nostalgic. Season 7 had so-and-so faults?"

Just because someone disagrees with you, does not make them nostalgic.

[Reslin]

Indeed, one of Plato's texts were about how the youth of today (back then) were terrorising the streets and showing no respect to their elders and how it would be the end of society.

However, if someone says they preferred Dexter season 7 to Season 8 and you disagree do you automatically follow up with "No you don't, you're being nostalgic. Season 7 had so-and-so faults?"

Just because someone disagrees with you, does not make them nostalgic.

No it doesn't but when you find yourself completely outnumbered and even when those who designed these old school mmorpgs in the first place no longer believe the concept to be valid it's hard to ignore this train of thought. I mean, even Everquest moved past it. Everquest 2 took on a more wow like model. Everquest next is trying something completely different. Final Fantasy 11 ditched it's 2003 model. FF14 threw most of those elements in the fire in favor of a more modern approach. Note I am not saying you are WRONG for preferring the old school style. I'm saying that your opinion is UNPOPULAR. Aka outdated. There's still people out there who prefer outdated stuff. There's even a market for people like that out there but they're not the norm nor are they the majority. I still listen to classic rock but that isn't the music that is popular today.

If I was incredible with a musical instrument and had amazing singing potential I'd do much better if I pursued something more mainstream.

P.S. I just noticed I don't fit your criteria in your original post. I've said more than "You're being nostalgic." I'm still here debating with you. :P

[Hyrist]

Just because someone disagrees with you, does not make them nostalgic.

Conversely, just because someone agrees with you, does not imply that they are not.


This is a non-sequetor argument. When someone refers to FFXI in positive terms, especially past or outdated systems of the game, then indeed they are being nostalgic. Nostalgia by its blunt definition is the fond recollection of one's past experiences. This in and of itself is not a negative. Being blinded by your nostalgia, however, is.

If someone is reminiscing about their past, that is nostalgia. It matters not if they disagree or not. I have nostalgic feelings about FFXI too, pretty much every FFXI player is likely to. The difference is constantly citing it as a positive and as your reasoning for mechanics can, and is likely influenced by nostalgia, which is why the counter-argument is stated so frequently.

Tropes and Stereotypes exist due to the frequency of the assumption actually being correct far more often than being incorrect. We as humans object to being stereotyped at the same time we do it to ourselves for the sake of unity and community. We contradict ourselves constantly.

[Kazamoto]

Tropes and Stereotypes exist due to the frequency of the assumption actually being correct far more often than being incorrect. We as humans object to being stereotyped at the same time we do it to ourselves for the sake of unity and community. We contradict ourselves constantly.

Excellent argument in favor or racism there brohan. The majority of people in US prisons are African American. African Americans must be criminals.


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I had a list before of features from FFXI i would like to see in FFXIV.

FFXI AH System[Vanilla]:
Most definitely not perfect, but there are features about how the FFXI AH worked that I think would work well in FFXIV.


Pankration[ToAU]:
Final Fantasy Pokemon, the argument that the game wouldn't support it does not really hold, as it was made from scratch for FFXI. Vanillia FFXI had no similar existing mechanisms to this feature, but they still added it.
Similar work could be done, and having a bunny beat up a kraken was loads of fun.


Nyzul Isle[ToAU]:
A dungeon with only the timer as its end point. Randomized floors with differing objectives, layouts and bosses every so many floors.

Tell me how this wouldn't be a great time sink for end game players running out of content?

At the very least the randomized (to an extent obviously) levels would change the pace a bit from WP and AK spam.


BCNM/KSNM/ZNM[Vanilla]:
Have random mobs drop tokens, tokens used in exchange for access to boss fights that reward gear.

Moblin Maze Mongers[WotG]:
A hard one for sure. These were player created dungeons, players could create built-to-order dungeons ("mazes") with custom settings and rules, that can be enjoyed alone or together with friends.

Again, Vanilla FFXI had no way to support this feature, but would provide hours and hours of content to people who are sick of current spam.

Imagine creating your own dungeon and challenging others to beat it. Sounds fun to me.

Gambling tables
FFXI had games of chance in one of the main cities, maybe even all of them. In the last Live Letter, it was mentioned that some of the dev team were thinking about adding a card game.

[SynMaris]

Snip.

Agreed, one thing I enjoyed in XI was Nyzul Isle, I feel Crystal Tower might be similar but with 24 people. BCNM/KSNM/ZNM I enjoyed too I'd like to see these or something along these lines be implemented.

[Hyrist]

Excellent argument in favor or racism there brohan. The majority of people in US prisons are African American. African Americans must be criminals.

Nice red herring. Removing an argument of its context in order to support yours is really poor comprehension skills.


We're talking behavior stereotypes, or tropes, not racial profiling. If someone follows a reasonable course of behavior that matches a well established precedent, then it is a safe assumption that the individual will continue to follow that precedent until they prove themselves otherwise.

It's as simple as pattern recognition. We hate to think of ourselves a predictable on the grand scale, but we as human beings ultimately are.

Sad, I had credited you as an individual that was capable of holding a civil conversation and presenting your points in a constructive manner, and now this. I hope such a course can continue rather than dive into personal attacks.
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As far as the individual mechanics. There is a difference in presentation between how you are presenting your case and how countless others are presenting theirs. Your display is far better than that of uncountable number of others.

Many of the ideas you list are something I'd support, (Aside from AH system, I do not believe blind bidding is appropriate for this kind of economy.) And I would like to speak of them in more detail.

However some of these suggestions in my opinion deserve their own thread individually, while others (such as gambling tables) Could probably be done as part of a greater whole (such as a Minigame discussion.) I have confidence that if you segment these properly, they would make the ground for good conversation and refinement of ideas for the developers to consider.

And it would lead as a good example on how to get others to introduce topics and conversations rather than the buzzwords, hyperbole, and falling into common tropes we've been having in the forum for quite a while now.

In fact if you'd like to start a topic (I think a the KS/BC/ZNM discussion would be a good one to start.) I'd gladly join you over in it and talk over it more. However I'd like to keep things more or less on topic here.

[Aegis]

This is a non-sequetor argument. When someone refers to FFXI in positive terms, especially past or outdated systems of the game, then indeed they are being nostalgic. Nostalgia by its blunt definition is the fond recollection of one's past experiences. This in and of itself is not a negative. Being blinded by your nostalgia, however, is.

If someone is reminiscing about their past, that is nostalgia.

Indeed. And if the people calling others out for being nostalgic were intending the actual definition of nostalgia, I wouldn't have a problem with it. It's when people are using Nostalgia as a blanket dismissal of someone's opinions when it becomes patronising. People don't understand that because others don't see the advances in MMO tropes as positive, but rather, see them as a step down, that they can be looking at it clearly and rationally but instead are looking back in a distorted way through rose-tinted glasses.

I, for example, don't like inter-server duty finders. They are a modern MMO convenience that has a negative impact on server communities. I recognise their advantages (faster grouping, wider pool of party members, convenient formation), but I feel those benefits do not outweigh the negatives (lack of responsibility for actions causing players to be rude/disruptive to each other, removal of one the main conduits of networking and community-building within servers). However, if I were to start a thread to the effect of the community in XIV was far better before ARR (it really was) and DF has harmed the community, I would get leapt all over and told it wasn't, that I was being nostalgic.

I would then have to post a follow up post with all my reasoning to show I wasn't being which would promptly be ignored by others jumping on the 'lolnostalgia' bandwagon.