Nostalgia

[Aegis]

Nostalgia is the most common cause of people's arguments. Take this for an example:

Every new generation the older generation talks about how much their time was better. Many will fight vehemently that it's not nostalgia. Their time was better. The youths have become more rebellious, people are nastier, the music isn't as good, and the mmo's in the past were better. People said this about the 00's, 90's, 80's, and so on. Each time the new generation saying that THEIR time was better. You're repeating the same old story here. You can continue to argue that FF11 is better than how mmo's are run today but even the devs believe the mmos of the now have been the result of "progress." It is nostalgia if you can't enjoy what's in the now because you're too stuck on how it was done in the past. Especially if you can't appreciate the quality of life achievements that have been made since then.

No, I'm not saying this is how you are. It's merely an example of how nostalgia is very relevant. The whole debate about how mmo's used to have a massive grind to level reminds me of the joking comments of "Back in my day we had to walk up snow covered hills for 8 miles." If that was true there's a reason we no longer have to do that now.

Indeed: Socrates:
“Our youth now love luxury. They have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for their elders and love chatter in place of exercise; they no longer rise when elders enter the room; they contradict their parents, chatter before company; gobble up their food and tyrannize their teachers.”

However, if someone says they preferred Dexter season 7 to Season 8 and you disagree do you automatically follow up with "No you don't, you're being nostalgic. Season 7 had so-and-so faults?"

Just because someone disagrees with you, does not make them nostalgic.

[Reslin]

Indeed, one of Plato's texts were about how the youth of today (back then) were terrorising the streets and showing no respect to their elders and how it would be the end of society.

However, if someone says they preferred Dexter season 7 to Season 8 and you disagree do you automatically follow up with "No you don't, you're being nostalgic. Season 7 had so-and-so faults?"

Just because someone disagrees with you, does not make them nostalgic.

No it doesn't but when you find yourself completely outnumbered and even when those who designed these old school mmorpgs in the first place no longer believe the concept to be valid it's hard to ignore this train of thought. I mean, even Everquest moved past it. Everquest 2 took on a more wow like model. Everquest next is trying something completely different. Final Fantasy 11 ditched it's 2003 model. FF14 threw most of those elements in the fire in favor of a more modern approach. Note I am not saying you are WRONG for preferring the old school style. I'm saying that your opinion is UNPOPULAR. Aka outdated. There's still people out there who prefer outdated stuff. There's even a market for people like that out there but they're not the norm nor are they the majority. I still listen to classic rock but that isn't the music that is popular today.

If I was incredible with a musical instrument and had amazing singing potential I'd do much better if I pursued something more mainstream.

P.S. I just noticed I don't fit your criteria in your original post. I've said more than "You're being nostalgic." I'm still here debating with you. :P

[Hyrist]

Just because someone disagrees with you, does not make them nostalgic.

Conversely, just because someone agrees with you, does not imply that they are not.


This is a non-sequetor argument. When someone refers to FFXI in positive terms, especially past or outdated systems of the game, then indeed they are being nostalgic. Nostalgia by its blunt definition is the fond recollection of one's past experiences. This in and of itself is not a negative. Being blinded by your nostalgia, however, is.

If someone is reminiscing about their past, that is nostalgia. It matters not if they disagree or not. I have nostalgic feelings about FFXI too, pretty much every FFXI player is likely to. The difference is constantly citing it as a positive and as your reasoning for mechanics can, and is likely influenced by nostalgia, which is why the counter-argument is stated so frequently.

Tropes and Stereotypes exist due to the frequency of the assumption actually being correct far more often than being incorrect. We as humans object to being stereotyped at the same time we do it to ourselves for the sake of unity and community. We contradict ourselves constantly.

[Kazamoto]

Tropes and Stereotypes exist due to the frequency of the assumption actually being correct far more often than being incorrect. We as humans object to being stereotyped at the same time we do it to ourselves for the sake of unity and community. We contradict ourselves constantly.

Excellent argument in favor or racism there brohan. The majority of people in US prisons are African American. African Americans must be criminals.


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I had a list before of features from FFXI i would like to see in FFXIV.

FFXI AH System[Vanilla]:
Most definitely not perfect, but there are features about how the FFXI AH worked that I think would work well in FFXIV.


Pankration[ToAU]:
Final Fantasy Pokemon, the argument that the game wouldn't support it does not really hold, as it was made from scratch for FFXI. Vanillia FFXI had no similar existing mechanisms to this feature, but they still added it.
Similar work could be done, and having a bunny beat up a kraken was loads of fun.


Nyzul Isle[ToAU]:
A dungeon with only the timer as its end point. Randomized floors with differing objectives, layouts and bosses every so many floors.

Tell me how this wouldn't be a great time sink for end game players running out of content?

At the very least the randomized (to an extent obviously) levels would change the pace a bit from WP and AK spam.


BCNM/KSNM/ZNM[Vanilla]:
Have random mobs drop tokens, tokens used in exchange for access to boss fights that reward gear.

Moblin Maze Mongers[WotG]:
A hard one for sure. These were player created dungeons, players could create built-to-order dungeons ("mazes") with custom settings and rules, that can be enjoyed alone or together with friends.

Again, Vanilla FFXI had no way to support this feature, but would provide hours and hours of content to people who are sick of current spam.

Imagine creating your own dungeon and challenging others to beat it. Sounds fun to me.

Gambling tables
FFXI had games of chance in one of the main cities, maybe even all of them. In the last Live Letter, it was mentioned that some of the dev team were thinking about adding a card game.

[SynMaris]

Snip.

Agreed, one thing I enjoyed in XI was Nyzul Isle, I feel Crystal Tower might be similar but with 24 people. BCNM/KSNM/ZNM I enjoyed too I'd like to see these or something along these lines be implemented.

[Hyrist]

Excellent argument in favor or racism there brohan. The majority of people in US prisons are African American. African Americans must be criminals.

Nice red herring. Removing an argument of its context in order to support yours is really poor comprehension skills.


We're talking behavior stereotypes, or tropes, not racial profiling. If someone follows a reasonable course of behavior that matches a well established precedent, then it is a safe assumption that the individual will continue to follow that precedent until they prove themselves otherwise.

It's as simple as pattern recognition. We hate to think of ourselves a predictable on the grand scale, but we as human beings ultimately are.

Sad, I had credited you as an individual that was capable of holding a civil conversation and presenting your points in a constructive manner, and now this. I hope such a course can continue rather than dive into personal attacks.
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As far as the individual mechanics. There is a difference in presentation between how you are presenting your case and how countless others are presenting theirs. Your display is far better than that of uncountable number of others.

Many of the ideas you list are something I'd support, (Aside from AH system, I do not believe blind bidding is appropriate for this kind of economy.) And I would like to speak of them in more detail.

However some of these suggestions in my opinion deserve their own thread individually, while others (such as gambling tables) Could probably be done as part of a greater whole (such as a Minigame discussion.) I have confidence that if you segment these properly, they would make the ground for good conversation and refinement of ideas for the developers to consider.

And it would lead as a good example on how to get others to introduce topics and conversations rather than the buzzwords, hyperbole, and falling into common tropes we've been having in the forum for quite a while now.

In fact if you'd like to start a topic (I think a the KS/BC/ZNM discussion would be a good one to start.) I'd gladly join you over in it and talk over it more. However I'd like to keep things more or less on topic here.

[Kazamoto]

Nice red herring. Removing an argument of its context in order to support yours is really poor comprehension skills.

We're talking behavior stereotypes, or tropes, not racial profiling. If someone follows a reasonable course of behavior that matches a well established precedent, then it is a safe assumption that the individual will continue to follow that precedent until they prove themselves otherwise.

It's as simple as pattern recognition. We hate to think of ourselves a predictable on the grand scale, but we as human beings ultimately are.

Sad, I had credited you as an individual that was capable of holding a civil conversation and presenting your points in a constructive manner, and now this. I hope such a course can continue rather than dive into personal attacks.

My point, though I agree tastelessly posed is you are guilty of using a stereotype that is not empirically true, but supported by your own confirmation bias.
And I as you say, disagree with the stereotype suggested that, because someone played FFXI, they would automatically find it to be the best MMO based on mechanics and community.

My statement was indeed a bit of a red herring as it did not relate to the exact discussion at hand. But it did relate to your assertion that all stereotypes are true and took that to it's most ridiculous extent. See also: Asian woman drivers

Regardless of the trope or stereotype, to say that they would not exist if they were not true over generalizes a population, and when people like myself acknowledge the faults with FFXI, but try to also point out the strengths, we are hit with a wall of "LOL NOSTALGIA ROSE GLASSES HAHA" comments by people who do not truly seek a conversation for the betterment of us all.

[Hyrist]

My point, though I agree tastelessly posed is you are guilty of using a stereotype that is not empirically true, but supported by your own confirmation bias.

And I as you say, disagree with the stereotype suggested that, because someone played FFXI, they would automatically find it to be the best MMO based on mechanics and community.

We can explore the course of the conversations in detail if you wish about whether or not the bulk of the Nostalgia debate fits or does not fit within the stereotype it has generated and therefore is justified in an unbias manner if you wish. However at that point I would question both of our effective use of time in doing so.


I want to clarify, however, that I make no personal assertion that people believe that FFXI is implied that it is the best source to refer to. That is, however, often implied in the manner in which they present their argument, and often incites the backlash OP claims is undeserved. If someone lights a spark, do you blame the one lighting sparks, or the ones laying down dry tinder under them?

Granted, in my view both are guilty, but outreach must also be done with caution, not indignation.

Also, while you my cite confirmation bias as course in affirming your statement, this logical fallback always applies to both participants in a conversation.

My statement was indeed a bit of a red herring as it did not relate to the exact discussion at hand. But it did relate to your assertion that all stereotypes are true and took that to it's most ridiculous extent. See also: Asian woman drivers

This becomes semantics debate. Technically all stereotypes are true, but not in absolution. When you consider factors of limited use of time to debate, high emotional tensions involved in conversations about well exasperated topics, however, you will often deal with law of averages, in which generalizations and stereotypes prevail on both sides of a conversational spectrum. Therefore you get people who act like the stereotypes, and those who generalize individuals as stereotypes. I'll admit my part in the later, but there is enough personal experience on my part to justify this initial reaction. As there likely is enough experience on your end to justify yours.

My sympathies with your frustrations, but I have my own as well. I feel there is no innocent party in this situation, seeming we're dealing with people we cannot wholly speak for. But I can go and say that we are both equally exasperated with how much the conversations fall into the same old arguments.

Regardless of the trope or stereotype, to say that they would not exist if they were not true over generalizes a population, and when people like myself acknowledge the faults with FFXI, but try to also point out the strengths, we are hit with a wall of "LOL NOSTALGIA ROSE GLASSES HAHA" comments by people who do not truly seek a conversation for the betterment of us all.

And these people should simply be ignored until such a time in which they engage in the conversation properly. The flames are only fanned when the inappropriate retorts are acknowledged, on either and both sides. Those who focus on the topic of debate will find the conversation they are looking for.

I'll admit, it's a tiresome practice, which is why the forums need to be taken in shifts, in my opinion. Public outcry will not solve or improve this situation as it most often only serves to further fuel conformation bias. Instead, I suggest that we focus on serving as examples for those of the community who do not condone themselves properly to follow. At the very least, it can produce a small sub community that can engage in conversation among one another from differing gaming persuasions and continue a civil and productive discourse.

[Aegis]

This is a non-sequetor argument. When someone refers to FFXI in positive terms, especially past or outdated systems of the game, then indeed they are being nostalgic. Nostalgia by its blunt definition is the fond recollection of one's past experiences. This in and of itself is not a negative. Being blinded by your nostalgia, however, is.

If someone is reminiscing about their past, that is nostalgia.

Indeed. And if the people calling others out for being nostalgic were intending the actual definition of nostalgia, I wouldn't have a problem with it. It's when people are using Nostalgia as a blanket dismissal of someone's opinions when it becomes patronising. People don't understand that because others don't see the advances in MMO tropes as positive, but rather, see them as a step down, that they can be looking at it clearly and rationally but instead are looking back in a distorted way through rose-tinted glasses.

I, for example, don't like inter-server duty finders. They are a modern MMO convenience that has a negative impact on server communities. I recognise their advantages (faster grouping, wider pool of party members, convenient formation), but I feel those benefits do not outweigh the negatives (lack of responsibility for actions causing players to be rude/disruptive to each other, removal of one the main conduits of networking and community-building within servers). However, if I were to start a thread to the effect of the community in XIV was far better before ARR (it really was) and DF has harmed the community, I would get leapt all over and told it wasn't, that I was being nostalgic.

I would then have to post a follow up post with all my reasoning to show I wasn't being which would promptly be ignored by others jumping on the 'lolnostalgia' bandwagon.

[Hyrist]

...However, if I were to start a thread to the effect of the community in XIV was far better before ARR (it really was) and DF has harmed the community, I would get leapt all over and told it wasn't, that I was being nostalgic.

I would then have to post a follow up post with all my reasoning to show I wasn't being which would promptly be ignored by others jumping on the 'lolnostalgia' bandwagon.

First and foremost, lets acknowledge that there are those at fault for this sort of divided discourse on both ends of the isle. There are those too quick to disregard arguments of change and inspiration taken from games that hold flaw or are from older eras of gaming, regardless of the game, and especially if they are punishing. FFXI is just a common culprit here because it is the example most often cited on these boards as a reference on both sides.


However as you raise the point, I would state in counter that presentation, especially given the hot contestant regarding accessibility vs community and how frequently FFXI is mentioned, is paramount in creating a good conversation in the middle of so much hyper polarity.

I agree with you that the community defiantly felt better in 1.0. However a time comparison is inappropriate as it detracts from your point: that you feel the community suffers due to the advent of Duty Finder. Then, it is the Duty Finder itself that is the spotlight of the conversation, not A Realm Reborn vs 1.0. To present it the way you had, would have sabotaged your own efforts on your behalf by following a trope without even realizing you were.

(I'll also note, as an aside, that there were many contributing factors as to why the community felt so much closer in 1.0 than just Duty Finder, the atmosphere itself was entirely different - after all, that world was ending.)

If we are to step beyond the past vs present comparisons and focus entirely on the mechanics in question. Doing this would make the good first step to having constructive conversation.