Nostalgia

[Kazamoto]

Totally off topic, but use the same mechanic they use for 'additional' skills for BLU skills, as they level up they can select more from a larger list of options?

[Hyrist]

Totally off topic, but use the same mechanic they use for 'additional' skills for BLU skills, as they level up they can select more from a larger list of options?

There's a large scope problem here. The game's direction steps away from large skill libraries as a whole, and BLU is the very incarnation of a skill library.

Here are some of the obstacles I see, even though I want the job to be implemented:

- The game defines set roles, where BLU's library offers it to be versatile in many usually. How is this impasse resolved?

- Blue Mage is by definition, a Job class, which limits it to one job ability every five levels. It also restricts the Job within the current arc scope of a Class, that could be something entirely different when fitting under another 'Job'.

- Going off of the Scope of a class. BLU defined itself fairly strongly in 11 and in many ways previous games as a Sword-Mage. Sword already exists in the game and has little in the form flexibility to work with a Job that is inherently bestial. It would make sense to make a class that branches Blue mage and Beastmaster together, but how would that work in terms of weapons if reconstructing the Armory System's fundamentals is non-negotiable?

So Blue Mage has to be balanced against Duty Finder and the Class/Job system as well as the Armory in general. That makes it very difficult to capture the heart of the class, though I personally like the idea of "Additional Skills" as you described, but that may also cause some beef with other Deciples of Magic and classes as they lost a lot of spell-casting ability when the system changed over in 1.19.

[Aegis]

There's a large scope problem here. The game's direction steps away from large skill libraries as a whole, and BLU is the very incarnation of a skill library.

Here are some of the obstacles I see, even though I want the job to be implemented:

- The game defines set roles, where BLU's library offers it to be versatile in many usually. How is this impasse resolved?

As is Arcanist, It can tank, heal and DPS very effectively. Summoner can also tank and DPS (4xSMN WP runs are awesome). Just put it down as DD.

- Blue Mage is by definition, a Job class, which limits it to one job ability every five levels. It also restricts the Job within the current arc scope of a Class, that could be something entirely different when fitting under another 'Job'.

The Class could be 'Flayer' (was in the orginal XIV dats, never used). To be fair, Arcanist summons carby, something that no other non-SMN class had ever been able to do before.

- Going off of the Scope of a class. BLU defined itself fairly strongly in 11 and in many ways previous games as a Sword-Mage. Sword already exists in the game and has little in the form flexibility to work with a Job that is inherently bestial. It would make sense to make a class that branches Blue mage and Beastmaster together, but how would that work in terms of weapons if reconstructing the Armory System's fundamentals is non-negotiable?

In V it had mage weapons, In VIII it was a whip, In X it was a Lance, in X-2 it was a gun-mage. Only XI afaik tied Blue Mage to Swords (and Staves if you were healing/nuking)

So Blue Mage has to be balanced against Duty Finder and the Class/Job system as well as the Armory in general. That makes it very difficult to capture the heart of the class, though I personally like the idea of "Additional Skills" as you described, but that may also cause some beef with other Deciples of Magic and classes as they lost a lot of spell-casting ability when the system changed over in 1.19.

There are, of course problems adapting any class to the armory system, but I wouldn't say they were insurmountable.

It isn't a "Stop liking what I don't like." There's systems that are no longer used in mmo's for a reason. They might like it but they're no longer relevant when it comes to modern mmos and if you try to implement them in a modern mmo it will fail. Which means there's clear evidence that certain things ARE bad even if they like it. Just because someone likes something doesn't mean that it can't be bad.

'Features' like a working community? With the DF system, sure, that isn't *necessary* anymore.

Also, the majority of 'modern' MMOs fail. There hasn't been a release of a traditional EQ-style MMO (like XI) by a big-budget developer in recent memory. How do you know it would fail. There's certainly no shortage of evidence that incorporating all the modern MMO tropes is proof against failure.

By all means, make the argument that the aspect that person likes is no longer supportable/suitable, but don't just blindly accuse that person of nostalgia, of deluding themselves with rose-coloured glasses.

[Reslin]

There are, of course problems adapting any class to the armory system, but I wouldn't say they were insurmountable.



'Features' like a working community? With the DF system, sure, that isn't *necessary* anymore.

Also, the majority of 'modern' MMOs fail. There hasn't been a release of a traditional EQ-style MMO (like XI) by a big-budget developer in recent memory. How do you know it would fail. There's certainly no shortage of evidence that incorporating all the modern MMO tropes is proof against failure.

By all means, make the argument that the aspect that person likes is no longer supportable/suitable, but don't just blindly accuse that person of nostalgia, of deluding themselves with rose-coloured glasses.

There has. It was called Vanguard Saga of Heroes. No, the majority of mmo's released fail in the mind's of "most players." Failure is subjective considering most people view failure as "Not beating WoW." You realize, those same people, also view FF11 as a failure, correct? I've even seen them stated as such on the forums, which is ridiculous. They say "Only 500,000 subscribers? Lol." People have a warped idea of what constitutes as a success or failure. Why do I think it doesn't work? The fact that all these developers who developed their game in that regard have moved past it. Even FF11 did away with it. You might say "They lost faith." but that isn't it. Remember, they have data we don't. I doubt they implemented it and twiddled their thumbs as their player base dropped. No, it's more likely that they implemented modern mmo ideals and did away with the older ones and saw a rise in population. Which confirmed to them that it was the correct course of action. Making mmo's more accessible to the common population is what made the mmo industry so booming as it is.

If an mmo is made, even high quality, with a heavy grind it's considered a "korean grinder." and people push it away like the plague. I played Everquest and Final Fantasy 11. After experiencing the "modern mmo" I wouldn't play a game with that kind of time investment ever again (despite playing EQ for years.) I'm not alone.

Note when SWTOR one of the biggest complaints was "No dungeon finder?" Again, think about why FF11 changed it's model. Think about why they didn't use the original FF11 mold for this mmo. Think about why no mmo uses that model anymore really and why even sand box mmos which are a totally different animal are trying to find ways to hide/remove grind?

Here's the thing it worked in the past because... those kind of mmo's with massive leveling grind were the only options. It's not anymore. Most people opt out. Most people want to experience end game.

[Aegis]

There has. It was called Vanguard Saga of Heroes.

Now that's an obscure game lol. *Google-fu to refresh memory*.

It was made by a with only 150 people and was glitchy beyond belief. It's probably not the best candidate to prove that traditional MMORPGs can't be a commercial success.

No, the majority of mmo's released fail in the mind's of "most players." Failure is subjective considering most people view failure as "Not beating WoW." You realize, those same people, also view FF11 as a failure, correct? I've even seen them stated as such on the forums, which is ridiculous. They say "Only 500,000 subscribers? Lol." People have a warped idea of what constitutes as a success or failure. Why do I think it doesn't work? The fact that all these developers who developed their game in that regard have moved past it. Even FF11 did away with it. You might say "They lost faith." but that isn't it. Remember, they have data we don't. I doubt they implemented it and twiddled their thumbs as their player base dropped. No, it's more likely that they implemented modern mmo ideals and did away with the older ones and saw a rise in population. Which confirmed to them that it was the correct course of action. Making mmo's more accessible to the common population is what made the mmo industry so booming as it is.

If an mmo is made, even high quality, with a heavy grind it's considered a "korean grinder." and people push it away like the plague. I played Everquest and Final Fantasy 11. After experiencing the "modern mmo" I wouldn't play a game with that kind of time investment ever again (despite playing EQ for years.) I'm not alone.

Note when SWTOR one of the biggest complaints was "No dungeon finder?" Again, think about why FF11 changed it's model. Think about why they didn't use the original FF11 mold for this mmo. Think about why no mmo uses that model anymore really and why even sand box mmos which are a totally different animal are trying to find ways to hide/remove grind?

Here's the thing it worked in the past because... those kind of mmo's with massive leveling grind were the only options. It's not anymore. Most people opt out. Most people want to experience end game.

I'm not even arguing whether what these people want from those games is right for an MMO these days. I'm not even arguing that they are arguing that (a lot of them are saying that they loved certain features, but couldn't see them in an MMO these days). I am solely arguing that people's feelings toward a subject shouldn't be discounted as nostalgia unless you can find some way to prove they didn't feel that way at the time.

[Reslin]

Now that's an obscure game lol. *Google-fu to refresh memory*.

It was made by a with only 150 people and was glitchy beyond belief. It's probably not the best candidate to prove that traditional MMORPGs can't be a commercial success.



I'm not even arguing whether what these people want from those games is right for an MMO these days. I'm not even arguing that they are arguing that (a lot of them are saying that they loved certain features, but couldn't see them in an MMO these days). I am solely arguing that people's feelings toward a subject shouldn't be discounted as nostalgia unless you can find some way to prove they didn't feel that way at the time.

Except it has to do with nostalgia. 150 people is a lot of people. They also did pour a lot of money into the game and for it's time it was the most graphical mmo out. It was also released during a time when glitches were common place in mmo's (look at falling under the world in WoW, the loot bug, and quests that simply wouldn't work.) Glitches were a complaint in that game but so was the archaic leveling system. Using nostalgia as an argument is a valid argument. There's a reason the term rose colored glasses exist. People are referring to the fact that people forget the more frustrating aspects of some of these older games. However, some people are aware of them and still prefer them. The problem is these people are in the minority. If you notice the majority of the player base strives to hit level cap as soon as possible. Even if the games were more grindy/took longer to level in these people would still strive to hit cap as soon as possible.. it would just frustrate them to a greater degree. People are already complaining about fetch and kill quests. People are already getting sick of them (but so far no one has presented a real alternative) if the only method of leveling was long "killing mobs." that would just exacerbate the problem but as it stands if a developer comes up with a means to put an end to kill/fetch quests people might turn around and be adamant at keeping such things out of future mmos.

When people use "Rose colored glasses" or "Nostalgia." they don't mean to say that you didn't like the game. If that was the case you wouldn't play it. They are merely stating that people forget all the times they were frustrated. All the times someone wished "this" was different or "that" was easier or the times they felt like breaking their keyboard when some moron caused them to wipe a few times losing hours worth a work. It's easier to remember the good times than the bad in most situations especially if the game is your first love but maybe they are wrong. Maybe you relished these things after-all they don't know you but it's popular opinion even by the people who made these games that most people don't enjoy that kind of gaming anymore. Not enough to be really profitable making a game devoted to it.

Yes I'm aware I repeated my point twice. That has to do with re-writing some of it due to the inane post limit.

[Aegis]

When people use "Rose colored glasses" or "Nostalgia." they don't mean to say that you didn't like the game. If that was the case you wouldn't play it. They are merely stating that people forget all the times they were frustrated. All the times someone wished "this" was different or "that" was easier or the times they felt like breaking their keyboard when some moron caused them to wipe a few times losing hours worth a work.

But who is that person to say that they are forgetting this? Perhaps the person they are talking to never felt that way. I never did in XI, certainly. In fact I've never felt that way in any game since I was a child. You are in effect being told 'your views aren't valid because you aren't remembering it properly' That is one person telling another that they couldn't possibly like what the less impressed person didn't like.