Warrior "buff" in 2.1: not what we are expecting?

[PiedPiper]

sniiiiip

A) "I can pull threat off the pld as warrior" : Spoilers, so could another paladin. There have been a few threads that have mentioned this, and its something that's not getting a lot of attention, but hate generation is not linear.At least, not between two tanks using enmity moves against each other. At any point in a fight, a tank can engage and begin using their threat moves and catch up to an established tank. It doesn't matter if the MT or OT is war or pld, or both. A great place to see this is in turn 5. Let one tank pull Twin, the other get adds, the tank that was on adds, if they walk over and go all out on twin, you'll notice their hate continually builds and can catch up to / pass the main tank, who will have had a 1-3 minute lead. The math on this is bizarre and I have been unable to actually work out how/why it does this, but it is repeatable and pretty obvious it works this way. It has nothing or next to nothing to do with the damage/threat difference in the two players. I'm good, I'm really good, but I'm not "lol I can shit all over your two minute head start" good. And since my FC's OT has gone all the way through the first four turns with me, I doubt he's awful :P So yes, you can pull in turn 2 on ads, cus apparently, thats the way the game is set up. I can pretty easily pull back off our other tank during swaps, and he can pull back off me, so clearly we are playing at a similar level (since we are able to pull off each other, neither has an advantage).

Does warrior have a hate cap advantage over pld? Idk, my bff jill. It'll be really hard to test this because there is a built in bonus to the second place tank's hate of some sort. If you are so arrogant as to think that what you're seeing is purely down to your "awesomeness" and not some sort of concequence of how the game is scritped, then i just dunno what to telll you. You can even see this in BG's clear video, watch the off tank near the start and what few glimpses of hate bars you get and you'll see he catches up to the main tank (who has him massively out geared).

Also, even if warrior does have a hate lead, what use is it? PLD can hold off any dps without making them slow down, aoe or single target. Also , our aoe threat sustain is better and doesn't waste the resource we use for single target threat (tp). Simply put, I don't need any more threat.

B) "Its toally cool I have a massive str advantage over the pld, this comparrison matters cus... stuff" So, heres the deal. If you want to compare teh classes in terms of their potential, they need to be in equal gear. If you are main tanking on warrior, you're going to be wearing full vitality build (cus, Idk if you've heard, but death sentence hits like a truck as it builds up), so yes it does matter that you're wearing dps accessories and comparing to a pld in tanking acessories. Do it again with both of you stacked the same way (either both in str or both in vit) and at least roughly equal gear. You'll find, as has everyone else that has done these comparrions dilligently, the classes are very close. If both classes are in tanking stance, their numbers are pretty close, if both are in dps stance, their numbers are pretty close.

C) I Clear ak faster on war than pld: Lol, guess you aren't sac pulling. I clear faster on my pally than your war :> Also, how is wanderer's palace going for you?

[Taemek]

B) If you are main tanking on warrior, you're going to be wearing full vitality build

Stopped reading here because you are clearly unaware of what the Warrior was wearing when you typed this OR are not aware what is BiS for Warriors at the current time.

[CurlyBruce]

Warrior seems like a clunky class at the beginning, but once you realize that you don't have to be planted and are just as mobile as any other class, there isn't much of an issue.

What does mobility have anything to do with WAR not being able to tank 4 Stack Dread or Double Dread in Turn 4? The issue is that WAR straight up can't handle large amounts of damage before being able to heal itself up or have the healers top it off. That is the only issue. Brutal Swing animation isn't anything specific to WAR, it applies to all classes and any ability that has an immediate effect but stupidly long animation (see: Hallowed Ground, Benediction, Leg Sweep, Spirit's Within for silence, etc.)

So show us some parses that you deem to be worthy of acceptance to the overall community so we can subject it too further evaluation and criticism or are you still having trouble understanding?

You do realize the same could be said for you right? I haven't seen you provide any evidence to support your claim that WAR is superior in DPS to PLD. Instead of brushing off Kitru's math with burden of proof bull crap how about you show your own math or parses.

[Kitru]

So show us some parses that you deem to be worthy of acceptance to the overall community so we can subject it too further evaluation and criticism or are you still having trouble understanding?

I've yet to see a parser for this game that isn't painfully unreliable. Decent peripherals just don't exist as far as I've been able to gather, which is the source of most of these problems. There are a tiny smattering of data points, provided mostly by WARs stroking their own epeens by comparing themselves to the PLDs that they regularly rip enmity off of already (and, btw, my math actually indicates that a WAR *should* be ripping enmity off of a PLD since they *do* have an enmity advantage; the point is that the DPS difference is so small that it doesn't really matter in the grand scheme of things). Find a PLD that runs with WARs and regularly rips enmity off of them and compare yourself to that one. If you think you're a heavyweight, don't compare yourself to a middleweight and declare yourself innately superior.

I mean seriously, if there is any place better to flash your epeen, I figured it would be here on the forums with parses to support your eclaim, right? Yet I see nothing.....

I've already shown evidence that PLD and WAR have no appreciable DPS differences when geared similarly and played optimally. It's up to you to discredit my theory by actually putting out some parses with competent people that aren't regularly overtaken by people that overgear them. I'm not here to flash epeen (which you seem to be, based upon your answers). I'm here to actually suss out the truth. If you want to discredit me, it's up to you and I haven't seen you actually put out anything resembling a controlled comparison of the two since the best you can manage is two tanks in unequal gear played by people of obviously unequal skill. Try controlling some variables before saying that you've disproven me.

[PiedPiper]

Stopped reading here because you are clearly unaware of what the Warrior was wearing when you typed this OR are not aware what is BiS for Warriors at the current time.

It was shown in the thread that in that example the warrior had a major str advantage.

Best in slot for warrior, atm is comprised of AF2, allagan, and heros, every slot of fending. Or were you planning on clearing coils in full str accessories while being the main tank? Here, educate me. What is warrior best in slot atm for main tanking?

Also, if you stoped reading thre, that's AFTER I explained why the annecdote of warrior being able to pull off paladin was pretty null and void, and you didn't bother to argue against that--you know, the actual meat of the post and the information that matters.

[Phreak]

Stopped reading here because you are clearly unaware of what the Warrior was wearing when you typed this OR are not aware what is BiS for Warriors at the current time.

WAR BiS = Overgeared Healer

[Taemek]

What does mobility have anything to do with WAR not being able to tank 4 Stack Dread or Double Dread in Turn 4? The issue is that WAR straight up can't handle large amounts of damage before being able to heal itself up or have the healers top it off. That is the only issue. Brutal Swing animation isn't anything specific to WAR, it applies to all classes and any ability that has an immediate effect but stupidly long animation (see: Hallowed Ground, Benediction, Leg Sweep, Spirit's Within for silence, etc.)

Peoples reading comprehension disabilities always make people chuckle, now next time, when you read something, let it sink in. I assume you either read my entire post as you quoted the last paragraph OR skipped to the last paragraph and missed the part where I was talking about the long animation on Brutal Swing.

Either way, GJ......

You do realize the same could be said for you right? I haven't seen you provide any evidence to support your claim that WAR is superior in DPS to PLD. Instead of brushing off Kitru's math with burden of proof bull crap how about you show your own math or parses.

I do love a good Ninja edit. We have already played this game months ago and I can't be bothered doing it again with the ilk of yourself.

How about you put your money where your mouth us and show us some parses?

I seem to be rubbing nerves raw with the request of real time parses, I wonder why this is?

[Taemek]

It was shown in the thread that in that example the warrior had a major str advantage.

Best in slot for warrior, atm is comprised of AF2, allagan, and heros, every slot of fending. Or were you planning on clearing coils in full str accessories while being the main tank? Here, educate me. What is warrior best in slot atm for main tanking?

Oh really?

I guess everyone in this thread http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...zation-for-WAR. is wrong then?

Please do edumucate me. No wait, don't just edumucate me, edumucate the entire Warrior community.

[CurlyBruce]

It was shown in the thread that in that example the warrior had a major str advantage.

Best in slot for warrior, atm is comprised of AF2, allagan, and heros, every slot of fending. Or were you planning on clearing coils in full str accessories while being the main tank? Here, educate me. What is warrior best in slot atm for main tanking?

I also don't think he realizes that anything a WAR can wear for BiS a PLD can also wear and survive better with in MT scenario. Any gear differences are negligible because PLD and WAR share the same gear, barring Myth armor but base stats are the same and WAR arguably has worse secondary stats on their Myth armor. Baseline HP for both jobs is only off by 85 in favor of WAR. Any sufficient amount of VIT for WAR is more than sufficient for PLD because of it's suite of superior cooldowns.

[Kitru]

I seem to be rubbing nerves raw with the request of real time parses, I wonder why this is?

Mainly because you're being massively hypocritical. Apparently *we* need parses to prove what the theory that's based upon the fundamental math that the game is based upon and has been refined time and time again, but you don't need them to prove your largely unsupported anecdotal evidence that is regularly contradicted by other people's anecdotal evidence.

You seem to be unable to grasp the whole concept of "burden of proof". We've already brought proof in the form of theory to support our claims and anecdotal evidence. If you want to step it up, *you're* supposed to be the one to either match or exceed the quality of evidence (and be ready to have it be publicly vetted since, if you continue to bring up evidence of unequal comparison, you're not really looking to prove anything except the fact that a strong tank can generate more enmity than a weak tank or that a tank optimized for enmity generation can pulled aggro off of a tank optimized for survivability).