Monk- general discussion and feedback

[DerpyCubone]

-_-...



Do tell me, how much of Coil have you cleared on your MNK?

Nice strawman there =) Did it take long to build?

"Also, you cannot overwrite your DoT. Game will not let you unless you are more buffed than you were when you applied the previous." You can't escape that by trying to deflect on my Coil experience. So either you misspoke, which is ok. Or you do not know how Dots work. Which is it?

[NoctisUmbra]

Nice strawman there =) Did it take long to build?

"Also, you cannot overwrite your DoT. Game will not let you unless you are more buffed than you were when you applied the previous." You can't escape that by trying to deflect on my Coil experience. So either you misspoke, which is ok. Or you do not know how Dots work. Which is it?

Point remains. Unless you've kept perfect track of what buffs you had when you applied which Dot AND you're perfectly sure of the server tick time enough to risk a 2s overwrite for a miniscule DPS gain at the risk of losing GL3 due to a rotation fuck up or at least wasting a GCD... then sure go ahead.

Or you can just let your DoTs tick off.

It's also more than a strawman. Someone with little to no endgame experience shouldn't be talking about adjustments to jobs. MNK is highly desired in endgame, and you'd know that instead of arguing random semantics like popularity or trying to poke holes in little inconsequential debates.

Of course, I suppose you just need to find any holes you can when you're not making any sense in the actual topic at hand.

Try having a conversation with me about MNK metagame once you actually experience MNK metagame.

[DerpyCubone]

Snip.

"Also, you cannot overwrite your DoT. Game will not let you unless you are more buffed than you were when you applied the previous." =/= Track server ticks for overwrites.

As far as endgame, Yea I haven't done much of coil, due to RL restraints I currently don't have time. That's ok I'm not complaining, but do you know why I can still talk about it? I can use a bit of inferred knowledge in the matter. I've never been shot, yet I know that it's going to hurt. I can apply the same thing here. I know losing GL with no gain is annoying for me and alot of other Monks, So for fights that aren't even in the game yet I know that annoyance could be there and would like to see it made better.

Also I'm not only talking about monk "endgame", which while I know your using as standard word for raiding, it really is on a person to person basis(I'm looking at you forever crafters!), I'm also commenting on Solo play as well. Something you nicely leave out in your replies, Kinda funny that. There are also dungeons, most bosses have 100% uptime(which is also kinda meh), but the trash on the way to the boss can just be so blah sometimes. Tank hesitates between a pull that you could keep GL up on and it falls out, that's annoying.

Bottom line is this. While I do not want all DPS to be the same, and I do not mind a fight were one Job has a small advantage over another. I find that GL is overly restrictive. There are fights in the game currently where it drops off through no fault of the player, DURING a dps phase, not even a "hide from damage" phase. It is also hard to keep up while soloing, combining that with Monks low base ability potency makes things alittle tougher for a Monk then for other DPS classes while on your own. Soloing is more then fates btw, for whoever said that before... people gotta get mats from somewhere. Anyways, there needs to be more counterplay involved with GL for me. I'm not saying it should be a static buff, it should be something you could screw up. Maybe make it a spendable resource or something I dunno. But just as a thing that happens naturally over the course of a fight, then wears off arbitrarily, that isn't a great mechanic to me.

I'm going to leave it at that, I've said what I've needed to say. Feel free to disagree all you want but I've laid my case out as best I can:
I'm not asking for more DPS or an easier rotation, but for adjusting an aspect of Monk that feels sloppy.

[NoctisUmbra]

"Also, you cannot overwrite your DoT. Game will not let you unless you are more buffed than you were when you applied the previous." =/= Track server ticks for overwrites.

You are incredibly fond of that quote aren't you. Sticking to it with such desperation. You also seem to be quite fond of avoiding my point.

You would have to be very mindful of what buffs you had when you applied your DoTs in order to deduce whether or not your overwrite attempt will be successful. That's one. Furthermore, you will have to make sure that the final tick of the DoT (which due to server time ticks and how that works will happen during the final 3 seconds of the DoT uptime) actually went off before overwriting it in order to not clip it and lower your Demolish damage, and in turn your DPS.

That is what I am referring to. All of that to be able to swap your Snap Punch for a Demolish 1 rotation earlier, or do your ToD 1 GCD earlier, effectively resulting in a very minimal, theoretical DPS increase. The risk? If you were mistaken about the buffs or the final DoT tick, you risk potentially failing to place the buff, which means wasting a GCD at best, potentially screwing up your rotation and losing GL3 at worst or clipping your DoT and effectively lowering its DPS.

Read that a few times if you need to. Sure I may not be the best at conveying my knowledge, but honestly if you feel the need to post that quote again I'll just tell you now you're lost.

As far as endgame, Yea I haven't done much of coil, due to RL restraints I currently don't have time. That's ok I'm not complaining, but do you know why I can still talk about it? I can use a bit of inferred knowledge in the matter. I've never been shot, yet I know that it's going to hurt. I can apply the same thing here. I know losing GL with no gain is annoying for me and alot of other Monks, So for fights that aren't even in the game yet I know that annoyance could be there and would like to see it made better.

You just compared playing a video game at endgame to getting shot. Right. Bad analogy, to say the least. That's ok, most people suck at analogies.

Experience matters. However, you do make a good point in escaping back to your opinionated arguments. Back to that annoyance. Sure, let's not talk endgame. Let's not talk raids and content around which jobs are balanced. Nope. Let's talk about how losing GL3 makes you feel.

Sorry but, jobs don't get balance adjustments based on some highly subjective view on how a mechanic should work versus how it works. Job core mechanics are designed around style and balance, not feelings. Making GL stacks easier to keep up is not a QoL change. That is a balance adjustment.

Also I'm not only talking about monk "endgame", which while I know your using as standard word for raiding, it really is on a person to person basis(I'm looking at you forever crafters!), I'm also commenting on Solo play as well. Something you nicely leave out in your replies, Kinda funny that. There are also dungeons, most bosses have 100% uptime(which is also kinda meh), but the trash on the way to the boss can just be so blah sometimes. Tank hesitates between a pull that you could keep GL up on and it falls out, that's annoying.

Trash doesn't matter. However, I will humor you. You only really need to keep GL3 up between pulls if you are trying to run at high efficiency (like a speedrun). At that point, you need to be on the same page with your tank. The scenario you mention does not point to a problem in how GL stacks work, but rather a problem in communication between team members. That same tank can decided to run around like a headless chicken when tanking and make your life hell when it comes to getting hits in and keeping stacks. Doesn't mean they need to make GL upkeep easier.

As for solo play, this game has made it quite clear that solo play isn't the focus beyond basic run around quests. Even then, keeping up GL isn't an issue, so not sure why you even bring that up.

100% uptime fights are where MNK shines. Typically though, they don't last long enough for MNK to really pull ahead of other more burst-oriented DPS jobs which will typically start with higher DPS.

Good examples are Demon Wall or Anantabogas at Amdapor Keep. Due to 100% uptime, a MNK will shine in both fights with a burn strategy. However, with said strategy Demon Wall doesn't even live long enough for a big gap to emerge. Ananta, on the other hand, is basically a MNK's bitch.

Bottom line is this. While I do not want all DPS to be the same, and I do not mind a fight were one Job has a small advantage over another. I find that GL is overly restrictive. There are fights in the game currently where it drops off through no fault of the player, DURING a dps phase, not even a "hide from damage" phase. It is also hard to keep up while soloing, combining that with Monks low base ability potency makes things a little tougher for a Monk then for other DPS classes while on your own. Soloing is more then fates btw, for whoever said that before... people gotta get mats from somewhere. Anyways, there needs to be more counterplay involved with GL for me. I'm not saying it should be a static buff, it should be something you could screw up. Maybe make it a spendable resource or something I dunno. But just as a thing that happens naturally over the course of a fight, then wears off arbitrarily, that isn't a great mechanic to me.

I do not see how keeping GL3 up is difficult in solo play. You're hitting mobs that are basically hitting you back. Everything you do will connect. So... idk about that. Soloing may be difficult (for some people I guess) for other reasons, but GL3 upkeep isn't even close to being an issue in solo play.

Also there you go again with the DPS mention. Losing GL3 isn't unfair to MNK. It isn't. Stop saying it. False False False. That's what I've been trying to make you understand. It is intended. You simply cannot get your mind around that.

Long-lasting fights come with such breaks both as a means for DDs to recover some TP (a form of pacing) as well as balance checks to jobs like MNK and SMN that work exceptionally well in sustained battles and thus require to be walled every now and then to drop back down, relatively, to the realm of the more burst-oriented DPS jobs.

Everything you say gives the impression you think MNK is being unfairly punished by losing GL3 stacks. It isn't. It still pulls off higher DPS in long fights than most if not all other DPS jobs. So I'm really not seeing the punishment here. All I'm seeing is you get a little salty when you see your GL3 drop off. That just means the job isn't playing the way you envision it.

I'm going to leave it at that, I've said what I've needed to say. Feel free to disagree all you want but I've laid my case out as best I can:
I'm not asking for more DPS or an easier rotation, but for adjusting an aspect of Monk that feels sloppy.

Right. I'm not disagreeing with you here in that you've simply been voicing your opinions. Pure and simple. Opinions. That's fine. The forums are a place for opinions of the players as well.

The problem arises when you try to present your opinions as being more than that - like there's an actual balance problem, or something is unfair and needs to be changed, etc... or when you chime in with support for suggested changes that will in fact upset the balance of DPS jobs by overpowering MNK.


TL;DR:

You're arguments are entirely opinionated. That is fine. Opinions simply do not make for good support for balance adjustments - which the OP is comprised of.

[DerpyCubone]

Snip.

Holy crap it's like you have no reading comprehension or are just twisting words on purpose at this point
Let's break this down a bit.

"You would have to be very mindful of what buffs you had when you applied your DoTs in order to deduce whether or not your overwrite attempt will be successful. That's one. Furthermore, you will have to make sure that the final tick of the DoT (which due to server time ticks and how that works will happen during the final 3 seconds of the DoT uptime) actually went off before overwriting it in order to not clip it and lower your Demolish damage, and in turn your DPS."
All true what you said, However you claimed before, as fact, that you could not overwrite dots, that the game will not let you. Those 2 things aren't the same thing. So like I said, either you misspoke about the game not letting you overwrite dots, or you were wrong when explaining to the person earlier. There is no in between on that. Explaining how the game does in fact work at a min-max level doesn't change what you presented as fact.
"Also, you cannot overwrite your DoT. Game will not let you unless you are more buffed than you were when you applied the previous." Is something you tried to pass off as a fact. It is incorrect. Do you agree that what you said is wrong? If not, why? Did you mean something else? Did you mean that in only the sense of a weaker buff getting overwritten? That's fine if you did however your statement is still factually incorrect and could cause issues to up and coming monks thinking they would always have to wait as that was how the game worked. And as someone who is trying to use my lack of coil as proof, that you said something that is just blatantly wrong is pretty nice to throw back in your face.

"You just compared playing a video game at endgame to getting shot. Right. Bad analogy, to say the least. That's ok, most people suck at analogies."
You right, it would be a bad analogy, too bad I wasn't using an analogy, but an example. I was using getting shot as an example for inferred knowledge, Don't feel bad that you didn't understand that. As you yourself said, most people suck at analogies.

For Solo play, your right that keeping GL up is easy if the enemy is sitting there fighting you... so could you please tell me where you go that the enemies aren't spread out at all? Or do you just teleport around and have no walking distant between fights?

"Also there you go again with the DPS mention. Losing GL3 isn't unfair to MNK."
I wasn't talking about losing it, I was talking about not having it at all, which I often don't while I am farming, putting monk at a annoying disadvantage.
"Everything you say gives the impression you think MNK is being unfairly punished by losing GL3 stacks. It isn't. It still pulls off higher DPS in long fights than most if not all other DPS jobs"
And short fights? How about those?

"The problem arises when you try to present your opinions as being more than that - like there's an actual balance problem, or something is unfair and needs to be changed, etc... or when you chime in with support for suggested changes that will in fact upset the balance of DPS jobs by overpowering MNK."
You do know you can adjust things but keep the DPS levels the same right? There are sideways adjustments?
It's just math, 2+2+2=6, but so does 1+2+3.

And lastly, the thing we 100% agree on
"You're arguments are entirely opinionated" I could say the same thing about you. That your arguments are entirely opinionated.

I think that we play a very different game. I spend my time soloing while waiting for life to settle down. Competing for mobs while your the slowest dps out there (smn might be slower for solo play, I'm not sure to be honest) because GL is a huge part of Monk damage and you will not have it based on mob spacing/other people claiming/things like that. It's frustrating.
I'm guessing your spending your time in Coil where things like that don't matter to you. That's fine, GL is working for you. It's not working for me.

[NoctisUmbra]

"You would have to be very mindful of what buffs you had when you applied your DoTs in order to deduce whether or not your overwrite attempt will be successful. That's one. Furthermore, you will have to make sure that the final tick of the DoT (which due to server time ticks and how that works will happen during the final 3 seconds of the DoT uptime) actually went off before overwriting it in order to not clip it and lower your Demolish damage, and in turn your DPS."
All true what you said, However you claimed before, as fact, that you could not overwrite dots, that the game will not let you. Those 2 things aren't the same thing. So like I said, either you misspoke about the game not letting you overwrite dots, or you were wrong when explaining to the person earlier. There is no in between on that. Explaining how the game does in fact work at a min-max level doesn't change that fact.
"Also, you cannot overwrite your DoT. Game will not let you unless you are more buffed than you were when you applied the previous." Is something you tried to pass off as a fact. It is incorrect. Do you agree that what you said is wrong? If not, why? Did you mean something else? Did you mean that in only the sense of a weaker buff getting overwritten? That's fine if you did however your statement is still factually incorrect and could cause issues to up and coming monks thinking they would always have to wait as that was how the game worked. And as someone who is trying to use my lack of coil as proof, that you said something that is just blatantly wrong is pretty nice to throw back in your face.

Yup. definitely fond of that. Yes. I misspoke there. Why? Because I never tested something so very specific as whether your DoT has to be stronger, or equal in strength, to overwrite. Normally I'd go and test it in such a scenario, but even now I'll take your word for it being true. Why? Because it is inconsequential. Doesn't matter. That information has not been of any use to me.

See, when you try to cling to that for like 3-4 posts in a thread and try to use it as ammunition to suggest I don't know how DoTs work or suggest it says a lot about my MNK then it's just funny/desperate.

The facts I do know, such as the server ticks, the potency comparisons between DoT skills and non-DoT skills, and the risks associated with overwriting compared to the rewards, then it never occurs to me to spend time testing such a specific scenario that is, again, inconsequential. That is what I was trying to demonstrate with my previous post. Yet you keep quoting me like a child that wants gratification for having caught something.


As for the rest of your last post, I don't see anything else I need to address.

"One of these things is not like the others."

Don't be a smartass. He asked for a parse. I didn't offer it as proof for my statements. If he feels that information is relevant to him, so be it. Perhaps he thinks it is impossible for MNK to top a parse in specific battles where the bar is set high.

[Allyrion]

The facts I do know, such as the server ticks, the potency comparisons between DoT skills and non-DoT skills, and the risks associated with overwriting compared to the rewards, then it never occurs to me to spend time testing such a specific scenario that is, again, inconsequential. That is what I was trying to demonstrate with my previous post. Yet you keep quoting me like a child that wants gratification for having caught something.

Admittedly, there might be no case where this is a dps increase for a monk (unlike, say, bard).

Assuming you pop IR right before demolish. The latest you can clip the dot while under the buff is around 12 seconds in. This means you are potentially clipping 2 ticks which would make your demolish a 160 potency attack as opposed to a 240 potency attack. I do not think the 30% crit on the next dot would make up for such a loss.

Blood for Blood lasts for 20 seconds so if you refresh Demolish every 3rd cycle like you should be doing anyway, then you would get another BfB Demolish.

Fracture can possibly be clipped during IR but this may mess up your timers for getting two BfB Demolishes and Fractures, if your cds lined up together.

A case to gain dps by clipping may arise, but the situation is so conditional you may never come across it. Alternatively, clipping may lead to a major dps loss in the vast majority of situations.

I haven't ever tested if there's a hierarchy of buffs, like maybe you can't overwrite a BfB buff with an IR buff or vice versa? Maybe once it's buffed at all, it's on the same level.

Also I can be a smartass all I want and point out hypocritcal things in your comments, like you have been doing to me anytime I mentioned DPS
Just like this!
"See, when you try to cling to that for like 3-4 posts in a thread and try to use it as ammunition to suggest I don't know how DoTs work or suggest it says a lot about my MNK then it's just funny/desperate."
"or when you chime in with support for suggested changes that will in fact upset the balance of DPS jobs by overpowering MNK."
Not asking for DPS changes, but you keep coming back to that in 3-4 posts. Says alot I think. I'm asking for a fun adjust, you keep bringing it around to DPS balance... granted anything that do will have to address that, but that can be done easy enough, alot of other games have, I don't see why XIV couldn't as well.

You guys are just petty together =D