Order of the Blue Garter Twintania Down (No Exploits)

[Onolock]

Incorrect. My first death was because I had been trying a new twister dodge method over the previous few attempts, but it was inconsistent. I gave up after that and returned to my normal dodge method and dodged the next two in a row easily. The fourth twister popped me because I made an error. The end.

Players in world first guilds don't click their abilities or have their damn tool tips on still. Do you not know what your abilities do by now? Sorry, but I'm not buying that excuse, multiple people dropped to it.

I'll only briefly touch on this, since it's so important to you.

People who sleep the conflags are avoiding dealing with the mechanic. They do it because they don't have enough DPS to take down the conflag before it pops whoever is inside. We don't sleep conflags, we deal with them. We have at least 2 people in the conflag every time, and sometimes 3. If you think it's trivially easy to DPS down a conflag with 1 tank + 2 DPS inside, then I invite you to watch twitch streams of Turn 5 for a few hours to get an idea of how many people struggle with conflags with just 1 person inside, especially if that person is a DPS job.

If we fail to kill the conflag in time, we instantly lose our MT + up to 2 more players. It's a wipe, period. Furthermore, fireball can and will still pop anyone with under ~4100 HP (we've seen it do up to 4200 damage per player). If you think Death sentence is the most difficult part of that phase, then you're allowed that opinion. But I personally don't consider 1 lustrate charge + 1 cure to be terribly difficult to perform. I don't use my aetherflow charges as much during that phase as it is, and even largely waste them on sacred soil just for something to do. Sacred soil isn't necessary at all.

The bottom line is: that phase is pretty easy for healers, and only DPS really have it rough. Our strategy makes it even harder on them, but they manage.

Now, that said- if this isn't an intended mechanic and it gets patched or the devs make a comment on it not being an intended mechanic, we'll happily adapt our strategy as necessary.

So many things wrong with your statements. After a conflag goes out, tank runs in, and the next person with fireball runs in. You should always pretty much have 3 people in there....duh You however have no one taking damage from anything during this, you literally stand there and do nothing. There is no fireball to heal there since it's brought inside the conflag(this is intended), so your point about dying to fireball which would only be because someone doesn't have enough health which of course you need over a certain amount of health to do the fight and has nothing to do with what you are talking about.

Doing that phase legit, you have to tank swap because of the healing debuff and the fact that she is doing more dmg and hitting faster with one of the link gone. Tanks can easily get gibbed from a DS + quick melee attack that happens, it's happened to us many times, there is no way to heal the tank quick enough sometimes and get him up quickly with the debuff. Since you don't ever have to swap tanks and manage healing cooldowns/tank cooldowns, makes healing and tanking a joke and pointless. You have no offtank since you are exploiting this since no healing debuff ever happens/ no death sentence ever happens. Tank only ever gets auto-attacked leaving the offtank to dps and spec out of vit like yours is. Still you have said nothing showing me you didn't exploit. Of course the phase is easy for healers, there is nothing to heal but fireballs which is a joke.

So....all in all, you only proved my point here. You are exploiting and bugging everything about that phase. You can easily kill this based on RNG of who gets picked for conflag/you have a total of 5 dps available at all time for killing conflags. Normally, you would only have 4 assuming no dps is picked( if a healer gets picked, your tank even runs more of a risk of dying, but there is no risk, since the tank never takes any major dmg from the intended mechanics.) Please explain how you guys are not exploiting again?

Edit: my apoligies for that statement, but seriously...bind your abilities and turn off tooltips =D

Edit: Daily post limit =/

[C-croft]

Players in world first guilds don't click their abilities or have their damn tool tips on still. Do you not know what your abilities do by now? Sorry, but I'm not buying that excuse, multiple people dropped to it.

Wasn't going to say anything, but I have to now.

#lolololololololololololololol

[des]

Players in world first guilds don't click their abilities or have their damn tool tips on still. Do you not know what your abilities do by now? Sorry, but I'm not buying that excuse, multiple people dropped to it.

Damn, didn't want to say anything but damn, someone really is freaking butthurt .

[RapBreon]

Doing that phase legit, you have to tank swap because of the healing debuff and the fact that she is doing more dmg and hitting faster with one of the link gone. Tanks can easily get gibbed from a DS + quick melee attack that happens, it's happened to us many times, there is no way to heal the tank quick enough sometimes and get him up quickly with the debuff. Since you don't ever have to swap tanks and manage healing cooldowns/tank cooldowns, makes healing and tanking a joke and pointless. You have no offtank since you are exploiting this since no healing debuff ever happens/ no death sentence ever happens. Tank only ever gets auto-attacked leaving the offtank to dps and spec out of vit like yours is. Still you have said nothing showing me you didn't exploit. Of course the phase is easy for healers, there is nothing to heal but fireballs which is a joke.

All this illustrates to me is that your MT and Healer are have trouble communicating when DS is incoming. Our MT who has only ~6k HP (600+ less health than BG's MT for reference) can and does MT the entirety of phase 2. Additionally, he can - with CD's - be solo kept up by a single healer if one goes into a conflag. And our healers have one (!) Allagan piece between the two of them. You over-estimate infirmity's effectiveness. I do that entire fight in Sword Oath minus the adds at the start and the snakes. You can do this without having your MT jump into a conflag. My group is four weeks behind first week raiders and we still have the DPS to deal with conflags.

What's my point here? Phase 2 isn't even hard enough for a serious progression guild for this to matter. It is more likely due to being worn out repeating this phase ad nauseam that they just went with the method that allowed them to shut-off. Even if the MT jumping into the fire is a bug, it doesn't matter, everybody has figured out how to get past this phase with a very high degree of accuracy at this point. Is the title incorrect? Maybe, but everybody was up to Twisters not conflags.

If you want my personal opinion, I do think the AI script is dodgy as hell, but again they did it to get through a section most serious progression guilds (themselves included) bested weeks ago. If someone turned around and said; "BG has never completed phase 2 without that tactic," then I'd be more willing to side with you. And even then, I'd reserve judgement until SE said something.

I personally think you're transplanting your own groups difficulties onto BG.

[Alkimi]

I do that entire fight in Sword Oath minus the adds at the start and the snakes. You can do this without having your MT jump into a conflag.

I know Phase 2 isn't that difficult once you get the hang of it but that just sounds unnecessarily risky. Death Sentence can hit for 5k+ unblocked and that's with Shield Oath up.

But I guess if your healers are fine with it....

[RapBreon]

I know Phase 2 isn't that difficult once you get the hang of it but that just sounds unnecessarily risky. Death Sentence can hit for 5k+ unblocked and that's with Shield Oath up.

But I guess if your healers are fine with it....

Erm I'm OT, sorry that might've been unclear in hind-sight.

[Onolock]

All this illustrates to me is that your MT and Healer are have trouble communicating when DS is incoming. Our MT who has only ~6k HP (600+ less health than BG's MT for reference) can and does MT the entirety of phase 2. Additionally, he can - with CD's - be solo kept up by a single healer if one goes into a conflag. And our healers have one (!) Allagan piece between the two of them. You over-estimate infirmity's effectiveness. I do that entire fight in Sword Oath minus the adds at the start and the snakes. You can do this without having your MT jump into a conflag. My group is four weeks behind first week raiders and we still have the DPS to deal with conflags.

What's my point here? Phase 2 isn't even hard enough for a serious progression guild for this to matter. It is more likely due to being worn out repeating this phase ad nauseam that they just went with the method that allowed them to shut-off. Even if the MT jumping into the fire is a bug, it doesn't matter, everybody has figured out how to get past this phase with a very high degree of accuracy at this point. Is the title incorrect? Maybe, but everybody was up to Twisters not conflags.

If you want my personal opinion, I do think the AI script is dodgy as hell, but again they did it to get through a section most serious progression guilds (themselves included) bested weeks ago. If someone turned around and said; "BG has never completed phase 2 without that tactic," then I'd be more willing to side with you. And even then, I'd reserve judgement until SE said something.

I personally think you're transplanting your own groups difficulties onto BG.

I'll ignore anything you assume about our raid because that is laughable. Yes, with CD's, but those CD's will run out, and leave tanks open to much more danger with healers being in conflag or even the offtank being targeted for conflag which can happen. They completely ignore any danger at all in this phase with breaking the boss and ignoring mechanics. This phase is essentially trivial. I'm not concerned about what your guild does or my guild, I'm concerned with the fact that this world first kill was a proven exploit and BG knows it because their only defence in this thread was a poor one.

So if they are so pro and this phase is so easy, why then did they choose to exploit? Any guild who genuinely cared about posting a world first strat "legit" would have not have resorted to such methods. Their stance has changed over the last 24 hours as posted earlier, they know what they did and people called them out on it. Actually, most guilds did not best this phase because they simply skipped it with sleeping conflags/using the rez strat because no one had the gear to kill conflags or keep their tanks up. This allowed guilds to see phases they shouldn't be able to see since they can't progress. It might be easy now that we have had 5-6 weeks to gear up in Coil...so of course it would be easy. This isn't my point, so again you aren't really seeing the problem at hand. So, this point is still false.

Sounds to me like you really don't fully know what you are talking about and just endorsing guilds who knowingly exploit fights.

[RapBreon]

I'll ignore anything you assume about our raid because that is laughable.

I aim to please :P

Yes, with CD's, but those CD's will run out, and leave tanks open to much more danger with healers being in conflag or even the offtank being targeted for conflag which can happen.

Sure it can happen, it would take three consecutive conflags on the healers, it's not really a common situation with the straight tanking strat. Tank swapping adds another variable, we found it better to cut the variable and take whatever rare wipes it may cause. If the tanks and healers communicate appropriately you can stretch those CD's for a long ass time.

They completely ignore any danger at all in this phase with breaking the boss and ignoring mechanics. This phase is essentially trivial. I'm not concerned about what your guild does or my guild, I'm concerned with the fact that this world first kill was a proven exploit and BG knows it because their only defence in this thread was a poor one.

Might I suggest this; if you're not concerned with what your group or my group does, you may want to avoid invoking anecdotal evidence to strengthen your case, then deny your interest when there is contrary (anecdotal) evidence.

So if they are so pro and this phase is so easy, why then did they choose to exploit?

I am unsure if you missed my point. BG are nerds, (I mean it endearingly <3) they've probably spent many hours having to do Phase 1-2 for a shot at the more difficult phases. When you've gotten to this point all you care about is expediting the process for the sake of your sanity. You either; see in black and white (good and bad), you're inexperienced or you're very uncreative if you can't think of a reason as to why someone would exploit beyond being an 'insidious evil genius' caricature (hyperbole, be calm).

Any guild who genuinely cared about posting a world first strat "legit" would have not have resorted to such methods.

I agree they dropped the ball here; they should've probably not gone with such a loaded title.

Their stance has changed over the last 24 hours as posted earlier, they know what they did and people called them out on it.

I actually wrote a detailed response to Kyne_Lyons but when I hit submit, it went down for maint and I lost it. So bleh to that.

But in summary; somebody changing their stance is hardly evidence of them 'lying'. If they were deliberately trying to cover something up; smart liars always stick to their guns because they know how suspicious they look when they change their story. Not to mention the power of forceful opinions, people often take credit for something they didn't do in certain circumstances (doubt this is the case though). They might have 100% believed it wasn't an exploit until the QQ began. Who knows what's going on in their heads. Basically, the changing of their stance means literally nothing at all, because you can slice this too many ways.

Actually, most guilds did not best this phase because they simply skipped it with sleeping conflags/using the rez strat because no one had the gear to kill conflags or keep their tanks up. This allowed guilds to see phases they shouldn't be able to see since they can't progress. It might be easy now that we have had 5-6 weeks to gear up in Coil...so of course it would be easy.

Completely disagree, if you have the DPS for turn 4 you have it for at least a 3 stack conflag.

This isn't my point, so again you aren't really seeing the problem at hand. So, this point is still false

This is entirely irrelevant to their kill video. Because they killed with 5-6 weeks of Coil gear, which almost everybody can do now....this point would've been relevant back when it was very difficult to DPS down conflags. Them seeing the phases weeks ahead (if this is true), gave them practise at those phases, which would then mean you'd have to technically ban everyone whoever slept a conflag, just to see the other phases, regardless of their success at killing Twins (good bye almost every raider). Tenuous rationalisation at best, at worst it's a shifting of goalposts.

Sounds to me like you really don't fully know what you are talking about and just endorsing guilds who knowingly exploit fights.

Ah, so you find my assumptions laughable, yet you make your own, oh that is ironic. If you must know, I'm unhappy they killed it, I wanted to be another week + for someone to down it so we had time to catch up a little more. I'm just honest enough to realise it is beaten and not clinging to some misguided sense of 'sportsmanship'.

If I may keep the wheel of assumptions turning; I think you're just an angry gamer who thinks they're leagues more intelligent than the rest of us (hehehe this may look ironic, but at least I acknowledge it). Here is my assessment; you're not, your points are cobbled together and don't flow, you back-track to try and make irrelevant points relevant; the entire basis of your argument is rooted in your own brand of morality - which is fine - except you don't acknowledge that's what it is. Additionally, your condescending attitude is amusing because more often than not you're completely off the mark.

Sorry for the delayed reply. I hope you'll still respond, I'm super bored. Also I don't apologise for extending this argument, SE hasn't given me enough content to log in, so I shall ruin their forums!

But first, I have another important announcement to make. On October 26, 2013 (PDT), a group of daring adventurers on Excalibur has managed to clear all five turns of the Binding Coil!

This is a world-first, and we couldn't be more excited for you. Congratulations on a job well done!!!
...
BG are Pride of West

Seeing as this effectively ends the conversation (sadly), I'll leave my points up for funsies. Additionally, I'll respond as maturely as I know how. Suck ittttttttttttttttttttt babyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy!

Honestly denying world first because of a wall that stopped being a wall would've been poor form anyway.

True enough given enough gear you could burn though them easily. But with binding you outgeared the fights in ilvl 70 gear, by SE's own admission, that's two tiers of gear below being fully outfitted in coil item gear. That's a problem.

Oh yes, let's hope they learn form this and tune a little harder!

Wildstar!

10char

Oh yes, yes yes yes, dw, I'll be haunting SYN like an annoying forum fly in that game as well.

[Sylvanna]

Doing that phase legit, you have to tank swap because of the healing debuff and the fact that she is doing more dmg and hitting faster with one of the link gone. Tanks can easily get gibbed from a DS + quick melee attack that happens, it's happened to us many times, there is no way to heal the tank quick enough sometimes and get him up quickly with the debuff.

No idea what you guys are doing but, yes, it is quite possible to heal the tank through the healing debuff. Not even close to hard. We've been doing so for weeks. Just saying. (No, we're not being inefficient, if that's what you're intending to say. And yes, we do tank swop at some point.)

Other than that, you're nitpicking at the easiest phase in the entire fight, which most of us can do with our eyes closed by now. /shrug Just saying.

Edit: P.S. That's a whole lot of people for you to quote...

[Onolock]

No idea what you guys are doing but, yes, it is quite possible to heal the tank through the healing debuff. Not even close to hard. We've been doing so for weeks. Just saying. (No, we're not being inefficient, if that's what you're intending to say. And yes, we do tank swop at some point.)

Other than that, you're nitpicking at the easiest phase in the entire fight, which most of us can do with our eyes closed by now. /shrug Just saying.

Edit: P.S. That's a whole lot of people for you to quote...

If that phase is so easy, why then did they choose to do it incorrectly and exploit it? I don't care how easy it is for your guild or any guild, the fact of the matter is this World First legit kill is not legit at all. This is the issue. I could care less about how easy or hard a phase is or how much dps x guild does or how awesome x guild is. Your e-peen flaunting is wasted. Cheating is still cheating any way you look at it. If some team exploited some mechanic on a map in DotA 2( or any other game or sporting event) for example at an international competition, you better believe people would be up in arms about it. Fact is, the they bugged the boss AI effectively breaking her in order to negate an entire phase of mechanics to achieve their "legit" kill. This is the same boss breaking bug that was used in a similar way, and why the boss was shut down. Again, your insults are wasted on me because I don't care how easy a phase is for you or how awesome your guild is or lol your guild must be bad so you are jealous(which I'm not). Facts are facts, and other people have posted their concerns in here as well; I'm just more adamant and vocal about it.