(Un)Official Arcanist/Summmoner Feedback Thread

[xxalucard]

5 yalms isn't small enough that it won't spread to what you need to spread it to.

Because double flare isn't functionally relevant and uses two CDs? It's a gimmick specifically assosciated with big trash pulls.
Swiftcast bliz 3? What? You do know Flare has a 4 second cast, right? It sounds, to me, like you've never even learned how other classes play, or function.

Actually, I have. I have a 50 BLM with relic and I know that when you transpose after 1 flare (because you can't always convert or use an MP potion, I don't know if you're aware of this...) the MP gain is slow and trying to normally cast bliz 3 is slower since you're in umbral ice. Sometimes there might be a situation you want to kill the adds and then quickly focus the boss-- the adds don't always start stacked together in a 5 yalm radius, so you may opt not to swiftcast the flare. Or maybe you have to move sooner than you think after you transpose.

It was just a random example of how you could lower the downtime after flare.

And, the thing is, as a SMN we just continue doing what we do. BLM has a cycle of low/high.

I think you mean high/high

It's not stupid. We would be the quintessential kings of everything. It's not near-instant. It's not a few seconds of downtime.

The logic is that we would be as far ahead for 5+ targets as we are 2-4. In fact, we would be FURTHER ahead because we would be using Tri-Disaster instead of Ruin.

Not sure what you're talking about here because fire 2 spam + flare will already beat any possible combo we use on 2-4 targets (especially if there's more), and in a shorter time frame. Explain maybe?

Okay, and when are the mobs not going to stay in the huge circle?

Easy, whenever one of the 5+ enemies gets hit by one or two aoes. The tank can't hold hate on everything in a large group very easily or very quickly, and often I have to literally run in the middle of my own shadow flare because I know that the second I bane those aggro lines are going to change to me. And many times I play with a BLM or a bard there is pretty much a guarantee that a few of the targets will run out of the circle.

Or, sometimes the tank simply has to move out of the circle because he has to avoid getting hit by something. Or a situation changes where he has to grab a certain target for some reason. Unless your DPS sucks horribly you will be used to the mobs running out of shadow flare the second you hit bane / thunder on a bunch of things. OH, almost forgot the countless times the healer happens to pull aggro on at least some them (it's hard to keep a tank alive in a large group without healing him, you see).

I can think of more situations if you like.

BLM isn't the king of everything.

I agree, but right now they are easily beating us in every form of AoE DPS-- which I thought was supposed to be summoner's specialty.

[Kevee]

Actually, I have. I have a 50 BLM with relic and I know that when you transpose after 1 flare (because you can't always convert or use an MP potion, I don't know if you're aware of this...) the MP gain is slow and trying to normally cast bliz 3 is slower since you're in umbral ice. Sometimes there might be a situation you want to kill the adds and then quickly focus the boss-- the adds don't always start stacked together in a 5 yalm radius, so you may opt not to swiftcast the flare. Or maybe you have to move sooner than you think after you transpose.

Having a class at 50 with a relic means nothing.

I don't know if you're aware of this, but if you don't have Convert/MP potion, you shouldn't be using Flare.

Such as? Don't list hypothetical situations. If they're not in a 5-yalm radius, you most likely can't AoE them either.

It was just a random example of how you could lower the downtime after flare.

Lowering the downtime means nothing when you spent 4 seconds casting it.

I think you mean high/high

No. BLM has a period of high DPS(AF), and a period of low DPS(UI). UI is shorter than AF, so it's not quite even, but you are most certainly not doing anywhere near AF damage in UI.

Not sure what you're talking about here because fire 2 spam + flare will already beat any possible combo we use on 2-4 targets (especially if there's more), and in a shorter time frame. Explain maybe?

Uh, no? 3 DoTs is 105 Pot + Shadow Flare(37.5), by themselves, is almost equal to what you can do. Then you use Miasma II(20 up front) and 10 DoT and we're equal. Then, while all of our DoTs are going, we're using Thunder/Ruin/Tri-Disaster to make us go even higher. I would say we're higher at Miasma II, but the application time for the DoTs makes up for BLM needing to use Fire III/Blizzard III.

And then you include the pet.

This is only an AoE scenario, too.

Turn 1 no one can match SMN, at all, period. 2 Spread out targets? Okay, let me DoT them both.

Easy, whenever one of the 5+ enemies gets hit by one or two aoes. The tank can't hold hate on everything in a large group very easily or very quickly, and often I have to literally run in the middle of my own shadow flare because I know that the second I bane those aggro lines are going to change to me. And many times I play with a BLM or a bard there is pretty much a guarantee that a few of the targets will run out of the circle.

Easy? What?

First, yes the tank can.

Second, why aren't you in melee anyways?

If everyone is competent then they will stay in the BRD/SMN circles.

Or, sometimes the tank simply has to move out of the circle because he has to avoid getting hit by something. Or a situation changes where he has to grab a certain target for some reason. Unless your DPS sucks horribly you will be used to the mobs running out of shadow flare the second you hit bane / thunder on a bunch of things. OH, almost forgot the countless times the healer happens to pull aggro on at least some them (it's hard to keep a tank alive in a large group without healing him, you see).

I can think of more situations if you like.

Avoid getting hit..by what? Grab a certain target..for what reason?
They won't be running out because I stand in melee. You know, you kind of have ot for Miasma II, not to mention mobs running all over the place is bad for everyone.

It's not hard. Healer won't pull aggro if the tank knows what he's doing, and healer will be in melee anyways for holy(WHM) or Miasma II(SCH). Not to mention healers will have an easier time due to the slow on Shadow Flare, and Disease from Miasma II.

Stop "thinking" of things and post real-world scenarios. "B-B-But Kevee! If I queue in the DF, these things happen!"

Yes, that's what happens when you go in an un-coordinated pug with no gear standard.

Good thing 8-~13 minute WP speed runs don't happen in pugs, right?

I agree, but right now they are easily beating us in every form of AoE DPS-- which I thought was supposed to be summoner's specialty.

lolno

[Hollow_Tears]

Increase the damage output for ruin 2 since it costs more.

[pandabearcat]

Increase the damage output for ruin 2 since it costs more.

What? No >.>

Anyway Kevee though we are the kings of 2-4 the point is at high (I actually don't know how high would be a realistic cap for this) numbers of targets, even with bane spreading to all targets our single target advantage will go to moot.

My point was never that we need bane spreading, but the justification the CM gave on how different classes have different roles and bullcrap about BLM AoE.

BLM already has the huge advantage of being resource independent, and as far as I'm concerned they are on equal footing on 1 target fights.

We do scale extremely well with cleave but

1. either only with manasong up or
2. can bane to multitarget

Because we will oom.

I don't think zero cap bane will completely obliterate other classes, nor do I think not having it will completely cripple our AoE.

Its just depressing it didn't swing the other way.

[RegentP]

Thanks, I notice that in titan today. How good is Dex for SMN.

[T0rin]

I've only been playing the game for 3.5 weeks now, but have done nothing but play an SMN. I still don't have my +1 (1-2 more days!), but I do have full DL and Relic. I pretty much do nothing but WPSR right now to make money, and in my time, I've run with a lot of BLMs.

My most successful groups are usually WAR+SCH+SMN+BLM, and I routinely parse and share parsing results with those BLMs. We routinely do 3 set pulls (and 4 on the final run) and I am having to AoE 8-10 mobs at once. This means I always have to Bane 2-3 times per pull, in order to hit everything. Even with that limitation, I find that I can keep pace with a slightly better equipped BLM (my Relic + DL vs his +1 + DL/Allagan/AF2), all things considered.

Sometimes I can edge them out, barely in the whole run. It isn't until I run with some dudes who have 4+ pieces of AF2/Allagan that they start to pull ahead of me. (still their +1 vs my Relic)

On bosses, I can out-DPS the BLMs who are notably better geared than me. I've only run into a single BLM who can out-DPS me on Bosses, and he is almost perfectly geared now.

What I do find wrong about a lot of posts in this thread, are the following:

1. Tri-Disaster is way underrated, especially in WPSR.
2. You don't need Ballad to keep DPS going, it is more a factor of having good companion AoE DPS and a tank who won't put you into situations where you need to waste mana.
3. You don't need Energy Drain to keep DPSing in long boss fights.

I'm only on BC Turn 2, atm, just started it a couple days ago, and don't yet have an established group. My results in BC may be vastly differently than what I've seen in WPSRs, but I know this: We are not vastly outgunned by BLMs either in AoE DPS or DPS as a whole. If you are, I'd wager that your rotation needs some work.

Yeah, it sucks that we need multiple sets of DoT+Bane to get everything covered. But, I think if Bane hit more than 3 targets, we would quickly become the absolute kings of AoE damage, and there would be very little that BLMs could do that we could not.

[AdvisorX]

Just one question. Why is whm holy stronger than ours. Don forget. Their holy can stun too.

[Ceelo_Mage]

Greetings,

I just wanted to let you know a bit about "Bane" and that we are planning to make adjustments to the action help text.

“Bane” can spread to up to three enemies. We balanced it in this way due to the fact that the action from the Garuda egi extends effect durations to the point where you can maintain close to a 30 second DoT, arcanists can utilize other magic, and pets deal their own damage.

Compared to black mage’s “Fire II,” it’s somewhat inferior as burst damage, but depending on the situation “Bane” can deal more damage, so consider that fact that different situations lend themselves to different jobs.

We apologize that the number of enemies “Bane” spreads to is not written clearly and we will be adjusting this in patch 2.1.

Totally not fair ! Bane should hit every target just like everyone elses dps !

[Crescent_Dusk]

I love how Kevee is schooling other people on BLM after having been caught not understanding how Astral Fire actually works before.

[Trihuuger]

Kevee you appear to be arguing like you've got hard numbers to backup your one-man crusade as to why this is the greatest thing since sliced bread. Frankly I'd love to have a parser that works, but currently to the best of my knowledge (and anyone else's) this doesn't exist for DoT's. Combat log limitations and all that.

And lol... Are you familiar with a "true" WPSR? It sure as hell doesn't involve a summoner. The party is BLM, WHM, PLD, and BRD. The WHM probably out-damages SMN's in these setups as well, nor could you really bring a SMN as the ramp up time is far too long, etc etc. If you're saying DoT's have enough time to tick and therefore "will" out-damage instead of simply "can," please watch a few video's of people running with that party above. DoT's wouldn't tick for even half duration as the mobs would be 1/2 dead by the time everything was fully rolling. The DoT's might have a chance to fully tick if the SMN is the AoE lol... It's that bad.

Please do not misunderstand my stance on mass AoE: It needs caps. Because I lack experience with any other game that's done so, I'm going to cite WoW's way of doing it where one spell could do so much damage, regardless of how many things it was hitting. CURRENTLY this doesn't exist and we have a HUGE discrepancy between "cleave" DPS vs mass AoE. I'm all about classes maintaining flavor in terms of how they accomplish goals, but I draw the line when particular make-ups dwarf everything else by a tremendous margin. In the instance of those WPSR's, they can clear that place almost 5 minutes faster than any other combination.

Frankly our cleave DPS is probably too high. I'd much rather have that reduced in some fashion than this target limit in the name of "fair is fair."