7 Ideas to Balance WAR

[Hundred]

Inner Beast is one flipping skill it doesn't need to do everything and the kitchen sink

[OmegaSinX]

Inner Beast is one flipping skill it doesn't need to do everything and the kitchen sink

True but In Their Defense, Warrior really got Shafted as far as Job Abilities go. Most Jobs got 3-5 New abilities that actually do something. We only Got 2, Inner Beast and Steel Cyclone (which is not worth wrath in most situations). Then we have Defiance, and The other 2 abilities are to counter the Gimp that comes with Defiance.

[Shingi]

100% absorb for 30 seconds on a 45 second cooldown would be absurd.
Mercy stroke is meant for multi-enemy situations as I see it which is why it works the way it does, a buffer like
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Assassin's_Promise would be some nice QoL for it.
I thought about Storm path at 150% before, its something like ~1/3rd of an IB right, would be good when you're up on Enmity for some sustain given you have the TP before it. I think it can work, but I've seen another suggestion to make storm path give a buff that makes your attacks absorb (like bloodbath) which I thought was cool. Either way the skill currently is pretty useless from day 1, so a buff can't hurt it.

100% return for 30 of every 45 would be effectively a refresh-style buff. average damage output in defiance is approx 100-130 per hit, giving you an effective return of approx 3000hp per activation (more or less) and its pretty easy to lose more than than in 45 seconds. i'm ball-parking my figures here, so they could use some tweaking.

150% return on storm's path makes it a viable option in combo rotation and tops off your HP, again, average hit on that being approx 150, that would give you 225hp, enough to assist in not being such a drain to MP on your healers if you can throw it in every 25-30 seconds.

Mercy stroke, yeah, its meant for groups as a sustaining heal, but in a group of 8, how often can you get the timing EXACTLY right to be the final attack? i know for me its far more random chance than actual skill because i never know how much damage my DD are going to throw out. its also effectively useless in boss fights, when WAR takes far more damage than from a group (and overpower+bloodbath is more effective, taking healing from multiple hits). letting it heal (on WAR ONLY) when used in the last 20% would make it far more effective at performing its role in groups AND give it a purpose in boss fights.

all in all, giving WAR's more or more effective ways to self heal in post-50 instances shortens the gap between PLD mitigation and EHP and sticks more with the theme of the job, rather than making it a "semi PLD with an axe" simply by trying to increase mitigation. I've said my numbers here are ball park, approximates and could likely use some more looking in to and fine-tuning, but for me they are far more in-theme and effective than most other suggestions i've seen thus far.

[Ehayte]

WAR does not have an appreciable offensive advantage over PLD.

Uhg..I'm just, I'm so tired of you. I was not talking about DPS, I was talking about tanking utility.

- Maim gets WARs up to 90% DMG (75%x1.2 = 90%) 10% higher than PLDs in Shield Oath, add in SE and you are relatively higher. So you need to use Maim OR SE to make up AND OVERCOME the larger (5% lol) dmg debuff.
- OP is GCD, it may cost a lot of TP, but even with conical targeting (which is NOT that difficult to manage) it has much more enmity utility because it doesn't take 15s to build all the enmity, and its not a 30s CD (RE: CoS).
- SW has a silence....and its a 300 potency attack (maybe slightly less) at the start of a fight to add an enmity cushion. And it has a silence. And a silence....I'm not sure why you think Circle of Scorn is somehow amazing.

You are the Toby to my Michael.

PS I'd like to state, as always, that I am a strong advocate of a WAR buff - I was just trying to say that I think things like IB that a WAR have are better from a mitigation/utility standpoint than what I feel like PLD has. PLD obviously has a better overall deal right now, but comparing WAR CDs to PLD CDs isn't 100% fair.

[Hachiko]

If IB worked like this, then it would scale with your gear improvements along with the difficulty of the content. Why not get behind this idea? It seems to solve a lot of problems with warrior.

I have a few hesitations about it.

First, it loads all of WAR survivability onto one active skill, which seems kind of questionable from a design standpoint. I think Inner Beast should be A tool for WAR survivability. Not the virtual only tool that WAR relies on. (also worth noting it would immediately make something like Thrill of Battle of questionable value).

Second, I'm not convinced it could be really well balanced. It still has big potential to be overpowered or underpowered.

Third, I'm not sure if it could be implemented in the current engine. I don't know the limitations of the game's combat log, but considering all the iffy things that happen in combat (i.e. not getting healed for killing blows inflicted by Mercy Stroke) I don't think I would want to let my char's survivability rely on such a thing.

Fourth, I'm not sure I like the way it would changed IB's usage. It would remove any strategy from using IB and IB would move simply to "use it whenever it's on up, and save Infuriate for emergencies." Not only that, but it would change WAR from a sort of anticipation and reaction based tank to a purely pre-emptive mitigation tank which is closer to being like paladins than people realize.

As a note, your second idea would make WAR obscenely overpowered without some fundamental reworks to Inner Beast. The rotation would be HS->SS->IB->BB->IB->HS->M->IB->SE->IB->HS->SS->IB->BB->IB etc. etc. etc. It would essentially triple WAR damage output, and suddenly WARs in tank stance would not only do more DPS than WAR outside of defiance but probably more than any other DPS in the game.

Uhg..I'm just, I'm so tired of you. I was not talking about DPS, I was talking about tanking utility.

- Maim gets WARs up to 90% DMG (75%x1.2 = 90%) 10% higher than PLDs in Shield Oath, add in SE and you are relatively higher. So you need to use Maim OR SE to make up AND OVERCOME the larger (5% lol) dmg debuff.
- OP is GCD, it may cost a lot of TP, but even with conical targeting (which is NOT that difficult to manage) it has much more enmity utility because it doesn't take 15s to build all the enmity, and its not a 30s CD (RE: CoS).
- SW has a silence....and its a 300 potency attack (maybe slightly less) at the start of a fight to add an enmity cushion. And it has a silence. And a silence....I'm not sure why you think Circle of Scorn is somehow amazing.

You are the Toby to my Michael.

You are under-estimating the value of Spirit's Within and particularly Circle of Scorn. Having two off GCD abilities which function as essentially 10 Potency/second each is extremely high value. Once you consider that PLD has the best damage buffing skill in Fight or Flight, they really close the gap between the two jobs.

The entire "advantage" a WAR has is based on how often they use Inner Beast. At no usage a WAR is probably going to be ~3-4% higher DPS. At constant usage ~12-18% higher.

WAR will have more AOE damage though, that's a given, but it comes at a high cost.

all in all, giving WAR's more or more effective ways to self heal in post-50 instances shortens the gap between PLD mitigation and EHP and sticks more with the theme of the job, rather than making it a "semi PLD with an axe" simply by trying to increase mitigation. I've said my numbers here are ball park, approximates and could likely use some more looking in to and fine-tuning, but for me they are far more in-theme and effective than most other suggestions i've seen thus far.

That's mostly because you have no experience with endgame tanking or playing a WAR at the endgame. Just having additional mitigation doesn't make WAR a semi PLD with an Axe. It's actually necessary for WAR to be a balanced class in the long run, because there is no way to increase healing alone to make them viable at endgame without making them completely and obscenely imbalanced before that point.

[Shingi]

That's mostly because you have no experience with endgame tanking or playing a WAR at the endgame. Just having additional mitigation doesn't make WAR a semi PLD with an Axe. It's actually necessary for WAR to be a balanced class in the long run, because there is no way to increase healing alone to make them viable at endgame without making them completely and obscenely imbalanced before that point.

and just what are you basing my level of endgame experience on?

if you bother to read my original post in this thread, the point i was making was having a level 50 trait to bring those changes in, so they're not available like that as cross-class skills and not before needed to survive endgame content without being such a drain on MP.

just because mitigation "works" doesnt make it the only solution, and its not in the theme of how WAR was designed. all my suggestion does is provide an upscale in WAR self-healing potential thats only available at endgame when its needed.

I'd ask you to also refrain from making further comments about me personally and if you feel the need to rebuke my ideas, work purely on them rather than the person making them.

[Hachiko]

I'd ask you to also refrain from making further comments about me personally and if you feel the need to rebuke my ideas, work purely on them rather than the person making them.

Your ideas straight up wouldn't even work at endgame. There is no degree of buffing that would make Storm's Path a solution to WAR problems without completely reworking the skill. Your solutions simply wouldn't work no matter what you feel the "theme" of the class is, because relying entirely on self heals will never come close to being enough mitigation for WAR without being an absurd degree of mitigation for lower level or lower teir content. You honestly haven't thought it through.

There is no way to have WAR be balanced at endgame via only self heals for mitigation and also be balanced at early game.

[Nonohana]

EXAMPTION： SORRY FOR MY BAD ENGLISH!


My definition of balanced WAR and PLD is... "If we have both WAR and PLD in party, main tank become WAR. But comparing PLD and WAR solo, PLD's survivability come top." and this has to be done without Hallowed Ground. Because, We all know that if WAR handle same damage as PLD does including Hallowed Ground it's just broken. So, WAR still needs to give some value to party that replace Hallowed Ground. (Or maybe SE should remove Hallowed Ground. No other skill can compare with Hallowed Ground. My vote for additional new action is something to lower 20% damage dealt by enemy( or enemies) like Rain of Death does.)

well.. with Fixed Defiance and Fist Of Earth, in most situation WAR overwhelmed PLD and become viable tank. I don't know it's fair or not... (though, still PLD do better in Bahamut.)

...

Three points. BTW, I change my side. Fist Of Earth is not too strong. (three reason, one, yes maybe I left too much, two, PLD still have scale damage mitigation CDs, and three, if Fist Of Earth become cross-class-skill we lose one additional skill.) But we need more consideration for both Fixed Defiance and Fist Of Earth on.

First, why did I remove RoH is that like, with Storm's Eye, Sword Oath PLD do better damage than off Defiance WAR. (we all know that.) So, in my head WAR should count RoH and should become better tank than PLD with RoH. My mistake is that I should both apply RoH(not leave RoH). So, under 1000 DPS, with RoH WAR now needs 743 hps, and with perfect IB war overwhelm PLD. (w/o ability, so, sorry, yes PLD CD work better with 700 mob-DPS. Finally PLD wins.) Anyhow, if SE balanced PLD and WAR than WAR should under effect of RoH.

Supposition of Perfect IB:
W/O Infuriate : 53
With Infuriate : 73

Second, We need to carefully consider about IB heal mitigation because the amount of mitigation is huge. 1000DPS vs 53 hps is nothing, but how about 700 vs 53 hps ~ 73 hps? This is extra 10% mitigation. We all know that stack up scale mitigation than efficiency become lower. We still don't count parry, Rain Of Death, and some other dps loose. First we stack up all scale mitigation, than deduct IB Heal from rest of damage. PLD always mitigates about 27% of damage, and WAR only does 22%, but amount of IB heal will take more than 5%(with 1000DPS.). In the past 100dps static mitigation is just nothing but Fist Of Earth or something work as Fist Of Earth bring back static mitigation into life.

Third, you said that constant IB heal are nearly impossible, but it should work fine. Because, our subject is to agaisnt massive DPS. While I'm doing PLD in Bahamut T1 Caduceus, I always have some room to heal(my HP always around 4000 with my 5400 hp maximum). In addition, with Fist Of Earth, WAR has 11% better EHP. Guess it's fair to count IB heal as constant mitigation.


BTW I agree with Hachiko that IB don't need dmg shield. That is just, not fun. Also, I wonder how much damage should we suppose to against. Yoshi-p said "will change WAR able to do something PLD does" but we still needs specific, (hypothetical) DPS level. I don't think 1000 DPS is appropriate. Any suggestions?

[Shingi]

Your ideas straight up wouldn't even work at endgame. There is no degree of buffing that would make Storm's Path a solution to WAR problems without completely reworking the skill. Your solutions simply wouldn't work no matter what you feel the "theme" of the class is, because relying entirely on self heals will never come close to being enough mitigation for WAR without being an absurd degree of mitigation for lower level or lower teir content. You honestly haven't thought it through.

There is no way to have WAR be balanced at endgame via only self heals for mitigation and also be balanced at early game.

yet you still are making no actual case against it, you're just going "no, wouldnt work", and you're still talking about "early game" even though i've said twice now about a trait to alter for endgame only. seems to me that you're just dismissing the idea because its not what you want or like.

[konflikti]

Now, for completely off the wall idea. Defiance, with zero Wrath stacks grants +25% HP, -25% damage received, -25% damage dealt. As you gain stacks of wrath, damage reduction is lowered by 5% (+-0% at five Wrath), but you gain +3/5% healing received per Wrath. Now you have to balance between getting enough enmity and blowing your Wrath before big attacks from bosses (add +Wrath to Overpower + Flash, so that you cannot cheat too). Tadah, really dynamic tanking!

Imagine all the Infuriate / IB / Unchained shenanigans, also making your pocket healer frustrated as hell since the damage you receive would be wildly variating.