"Fix Warrior" Threads

[Tugboat]

I enjoy a warrior. I have played one to turn 4. Pals are better in every way. I did beat our other pals dps by 8 points last weak on worm so there is that, I guess.

[Taemek]

The problem with DPS is that it is relative to the group DPS. Let's say you have two DPS doing 200 DPS each and a WAR doing 150 DPS and a PLD doing 100 DPS. WAR is giving you 10% more DPS. Add another DPS, and it drops to 7.1% and this is also with the WAR doing 50% more DPS than a PLD. I haven't looked at the DPS comparisons between WAR and PLDs. The problem is not the damage reduction the PLD gets, but rather that it is always present and that the bonus healing for the WAR does not result in equivalency with PLD damage reduction. The PLD is always ahead because of this, but, when coupled with the PLD CDs, the PLD just blows the WAR out of the water. PLDs have CDs that are so far beyond anything the WAR has it's just silly.

Agree.

However, this wasn't my point.

It is common design practise in the MMO industry that there is always trade offs when designing classes. No two classes are ever the same and one always has something better then the other that defines thier flavour. The trade revolves generally around utility vs survivability. In a PLD vs War comparison, by design, the Warrior trades off survivability to do more DPS when the Paladin trades off DPS for survivability and same can be said for DPS and Healing based classes, they all trade off something that makes one better then the other in some aspect, it ends up being a complete circle that chains itself together.

PLD CD's vs War CD's is another issue all together and might need some tweaking down the track.

I think the Global Cooldown can be lowered across the board for all classes by half a second or even 3/4 of a second, this alone would help a Warrior in some regard, while most likely not to the effect that some people want.

I guess the question here is, is the flavour of the Warrior in it's current state what SE was aiming for?

There will always be min/maxing, that will never go away and that boils down to the attitude and mentaility of the player, however, if people can successfully do what is needed of their class, regardless of effort involved, then I really see no issue as it comes down to personal perference on how one chooses to spend thier time and if people are willing to take on that challenge, why not, more power to them.

It seems like to you a 20% difference in the required amount of healing received would be "negligible" then. A multi-roll table actually FURTHER puts the paladin ahead in terms of mitigation than the WAR than any assumed single roll table, not the other way around.

And whether or not everything was rendered "moot" by showing that it's a multi-roll table has nothing to do with whether or not the difference between WAR and PLD is negligible in terms of survivability.

I have no idea how you can sit there and say it's a negligible difference. It means you must be 100% oblivious to what the multi-roll table actually means. There is no (not a negligible) difference in the parry rate. But that only has a minor impact on the amount of incoming damage. Parry is going to work out to ~5% damage reduction from incoming attacks. Block also works out between ~4-5% damage reduction from incoming attacks. Already paladin has virtually twice the mitigation as WAR from passive effects alone.

Then when you add in the fact that the PLD will suffer fewer crits, the gap widens even further. Then when you add in the ~5% reduction from RoH it widens even further.

Just counting passive effects after armor you are looking at a WAR taking ~95% of incoming damage, and a WAR taking ~85% incoming damage (.95 * .95 * .95 * .99, assuming the reduction in crits only works out to ~1% reduced incoming damage). (note that even if it were single roll the difference would have been negligible at (1-.05+.05) * .95 = 85.5%)

Do you really think that is a "negligible"?

Then you add in the fact that the WAR required 9% more healing baseline in general. So a WAR suffering 1000 DPS (after armor, before parry), they will need ~950 HPS after parry, and with the Wrath bonus that will be ~826 "raw" hps (assuming you are sitting on Wrath stacks). For a PLD suffering 1000 DPS (also after armor, before parry, Rage of Halone, or block), they will require ~680 heals per second.

How can you call that a "negligible" difference? That's over 21% more healing required! And that's without even comparing Cooldowns which the Paladin wins with hands down.

I agree with some points and disagree on others.

One very simple way at looking at this is, if a boss is doing 1000 DPS and the Warrior takes 950 HPS to keep up, while the Paladin only has to take 680 HPS, but the healer is capable of putting out 1500+ HPS, whats the issue? All that happens here is the amount of healing done per mana spent is maximized on a Warrior where it is not wasted as it would be on a Paladin where it would fall to overhealing.

You can also argue that if a fight takes say, 2 mins longer with a Paladin tank vs a Warrior tank due to the increased DPS they do, there is a certain degree of DPS incoming saved there, although, still more involving for the healers over a shorter period of time.

What do you feel would be an acceptable negligible difference Hachi?

[oceanlord]

taemek wheres your warrior main ? are you just acting like you know endgame as a warrior?

OH NOES, I am a low level, I can't possibly know what I am talking about......on my alt however, different story.

Since we are going to play the linking game:

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...=1#post1379515

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...=1#post1380620

These two posts respectively point out the difference in mitigation is negible and there is many more to support it with hard numbers.

Now, show me that Warriors are only doing 6-10% DPS more then a Paladin.

[Leiron]

snipped

I think you should read those posts because they don't discuss the damage mitigation as you think they do.

[Hachiko]

One very simple way at looking at this is, if a boss is doing 1000 DPS and the Warrior takes 950 HPS to keep up, while the Paladin only has to take 680 HPS, but the healer is capable of putting out 1500+ HPS, whats the issue? All that happens here is the amount of healing done per mana spent is maximized on a Warrior where it is not wasted as it would be on a Paladin where it would fall to overhealing.

You can also argue that if a fight takes say, 2 mins longer with a Paladin tank vs a Warrior tank due to the increased DPS they do, there is a certain degree of DPS incoming saved there, although, still more involving for the healers over a shorter period of time.

What do you feel would be an acceptable negligible difference Hachi?

First off, you have to be kidding. One tank can't take more than 20% more healing than the other to the point you can just wave it away and say "the healers can heal more than that anyway" because in general if they can it comes at some sacrifice, i.e. to their MP longevity or to their healing the rest of the party, otherwise the content would be absolutely trivial, particiularly with a PLD because they would be able to heal FAR more than what is required.

Second thing, are you freaking joking about making a fight 2 minutes faster? If that were the case then the situation were more nuanced. But if the difference between WAR and PLD being 2 minutes would mean the fight is what, 10 minutes long with PLD 8 minutes with WAR. That would mean assuming you have crappy DPS players only putting out 250 dps each, the difference between a WAR and PLD would have to be 20% of the overall raid dps with the PLD. With a PLD you're talking 1100 DPS, so a 2 minute advantage would put the war at 100+220, or 330 DPS. If WAR could put that much out in tank stance, they would be candidates for top DPS in the game.

A negligible difference would be something akin to a WAR shortening an 8 man fight by around the same margin of additional heals they required. So if a fight was 5% shorter they would take 5% more healing. Currently it's somewhere around 2-4% shorter by most counts (which is a negligible difference in length), and WAR takes more than 20% more healing once all things are considered (which is not a negligible difference in survivability).

[Terabyt3]

There is no way that WAR's self heal (main form of mitigation) is anywhere near as effective as PLD's once incoming DPS is high enough.
There is proof that WARs damage output is only a tiny bit better than PLD's and PLD's can actually put out more than WAR on occassion because of slashing debuf.

Why continue to even bother arguing at this point.

WAR performs better at low incoming DPS (to a point that requires little to no healing) PLD performs better at high incoming DPS.

Static mitigation vs. % based mitigation. The higher the numbers coming towards the % mitigation the more he mitigates.

If you can't grasp that by now go back to first school.

Until WAR has a main form of mitigation that is scaling to incoming damage the two will never be balanced and PLD will always do better above a certain DMG threshold.
P.S. WAR hps 950?! NO CHANCE. Maybe 120~ tops. Even that is 7200 self cures and parries in a minute including cd use.

Once a PLD mitigates more than that (let's assume roughly 20% over a minute using cd's which is reasonable considering block, parry and dmg reduction cd's) it becomes more effective. So once the dps in this case reaches more than 600 incoming dps (I think, maths needs checked.) A PLD mitigates more than a WAR.

Which is the JOB OF A TANK. Not to DPS.

Coil and Titan are both above the 600 dps incoming threshold for sure which is why life is easier as a PLD right now. I'm not saying it can't be done. Cleared titan and turn 1 with my war but the maths is there and I've speed levelled PLD for the time being to make life easier for the group.

It's a game based on maths, don't discount the numbers and wake up and realise. In static mitigation vs. scaling, scaling will always win as content gets harder.

[Cessna]

There are no Warriors who have main tanked coil turn 4.

I never said Main tank. Maybe I didn't come across clear, I saying that a warrior in theory would be able to complete all content. Which they HAVE so far.

Also I see I'm wrong about that turn and I'm sorry in general. I thought it was turn 1.

But anyhoo on to the next thing.

One very simple way at looking at this is, if a boss is doing 1000 DPS and the Warrior takes 950 HPS to keep up, while the Paladin only has to take 680 HPS, but the healer is capable of putting out 1500+ HPS, whats the issue? All that happens here is the amount of healing done per mana spent is maximized on a Warrior where it is not wasted as it would be on a Paladin where it would fall to overhealing.

The problem is like a above poster mentioned... is stress to healers. I even have a story. I was main tanking Titan HM, and I was able to get to 10% health of Titan hm. Everytime I wiped, it was due to the healers dying first. They were concentraiting on keeping me alive and less about their own survival. The same healers when I was used as a dps / off tank one shot titan using a paladin. The paladin health never droped beneath 70% 60% worst hits of MT buster. And the healers could focus on other things like living. They flat out told me that my tanking was good it just was they couldn't focus enough to heal all that more damage and keep dodging. While yes a war doesn't have mitigation, its absolute bullshit square that we make healers work harder at all.

[Terabyt3]

While yes a war doesn't have mitigation, its absolute bullshit that we make healers work harder at all.

We do have mitigation it's just reactive instead of proactive. We self heal.

It's not bulls**t that we make healers work harder. OFC we do once our mitigation is not as effective as a PLD's. See my above post.

At a certain point we DO require more healing as our form of mitigation is not as effective beyond that point.

[Cessna]

We do have mitigation it's just reactive instead of proactive. We self heal.

It's not bulls**t that we make healers work harder. OFC we do once our mitigation is not as effective as a PLD's. See my above post.

At a certain point we DO require more healing as our form of mitigation is not as effective beyond that point.

HUH... um... I'm on your side. I'm saying to square its totally wrong that we make our healers work harder.

[Terabyt3]

HUH... um... I'm on your side. I'm saying to square its totally wrong that we make our healers work harder.

Lol might wanna reword your post then bud. You just said it was bullsh** that we make healers work harder. Implying that it is a lie.

Unless of course you meant bullsh** in that it is unfair. Either way it's not very clear