XIV WAR Tanking - Baseline Mitigation and PLD comparison

[Derza]

I increase my STR and VIT in sync, not separately. So as my HP pool goes up so does my mitigation. There's no downside to this.

What exactly does that have to do with anything he said? You still can't increase your str enough to overcome the mitigation differences between the classes... and if you did you wouldn't have the HP to take the hits... See the downside?

[HiirNoivl]

except that damage output and parry mitigation are controlled by STR "walls". Unless your STR is a certain ammount you will not do more dmg.

Example you are at 200 STR. The next wall is 220.

If you put 19 points in str nothing will happen.

Put 1 more in and you reach that break point. your %parry increases as does your dmg output.


Even with what you are saying your MAIN way of mitigationg damage is self heals. Which is static and does not vary.

So what's your point?

What exactly does that have to do with anything he said? You still can't increase your str enough to overcome the mitigation differences between the classes... and if you did you wouldn't have the HP to take the hits... See the downside?

No. You raise your HP + raise you EHP. Which is more than raising just your HP by stacking VIT and not including mitigation on top of it.

You're talking to someone who Tanks Caduceus with 6700 HP. It's not rocket science. If I'm sitting at near full health at the turn of 3 stacks, then something must be going right. I'm getting to the point where I'm outliving PLDs.

I hadn't worked it out but that was the gist I was getting at.

Below a certain incoming DPS Warrior is better.
As it goes above that certain incoming DPS PLD starts pulling away and becomes better.

ATM coils and titan are way above that certain incoming DPS.


Titan is entirely possible as a WAR I've tanked it before. But it does require more effort from the healers.

Derza can you gimme a link to the calculations for the threshold of incoming dps and where the boundary is?

That would be good information. So yeah I'm interested in hearing that to. Would take out a lot of guess work.

I'm just not feeling you. While I'm sure people who haven't had my experiences may agree with your theorycrafting and hypothetical situations, I go and play and have a grand time and my healers have a grand time. They "work harder" when we hit 4 stacks cuz this WAR don't have to easy-button "lolHallowed Ground" But other than that, I've made believers out of them.

Looking forward to turn 2 tonight.

In order to increase WAR mitigation one has to sacrifice EHP.

No you don't. Inner Beast was never meant to be spammed. I tried that and it didn't work.

I don't sacrifice EHP to use Inner Beast. People who use IB>Infuriate>IB do. Unless the mob is nearly dead, it's not going to work.

You can just see HiirNoivl and Lhun's mind's melting in this thread... unable to grasp situations and context outside their immediate surroundings, trying to make points that have already been blatantly and preemptively contradicted by the original post explained in detail with math and simple logic.

Math and simple logic does not explain my success. You think the math is right but the basic premise is incorrect.

I already figured out that you need a huge IB to make up for the Wrath V. But instead of concluding that WAR was broken, I concluded that my playstyle was wrong and changed it so I wouldn't suffer a loss of EHP based on my own actions.

In short, I L'ed 2 P

EDIT: INB4

More and more hypotheticals and speculation that explains why WAR shouldn't tank at ENDgame

I tank at end game.

To the person wariror tankign Turn 1: Vid please. I really want to see this.

Hi Pied.

I'd love to post a video of my Tanking success! And I would have already!

Unfortunately, Fraps freezes my client. You can see this in my Garuda Video. Even if it's 2 or 3 secs only, that can spell a wipe it if happens when Caduceus's split or at other sensitive times. I'm not about to risk wipes just to satisfy your curiosity. Garuda I can tank with my eyes closed and my screen frozen. Caddie... eeeeeeh... not so much.

But the mechanics of the fight makes mitigating damage easy. Basically the goal is to DPS hard in the beginning and force an early split. Because I can survive up to 4 stacks of steel scales, having it split at 2 stacks isn't that big of a deal since usually a slime pops shortly after that and we can keep it at one.

[Terabyt3]

What exactly does that have to do with anything he said? You still can't increase your str enough to overcome the mitigation differences between the classes... and if you did you wouldn't have the HP to take the hits... See the downside?

The only difference being that WARs main form is static and PLD's scales.

Make self heals scale according to incoming dmg when defiance is active and the problem is solved.

[Terabyt3]

So what's your point?

For teh simplest example a pld can mitigate 50% damage on average over 2 minutes utilizing abilities and rotations.

In fight one lasting 2 mins he recieves a total of 1500 damage. his abilities (block, damage reduction cooldowns) mitigate 750 damage.
In fight two lasting 2 mins he recieves a total of 5000 damage. his abilities (block, damage reduction cooldowns) mitigate 2500 damage.


A warrior however has mitigation in self heals (parry isnt counted as it is the same or virtually the same as PLD's) and a larger HP pool to allow to have a chance to self heal after taking a hit.
Assuming the Warriors "perfect rotations" allow 1500 hp of self heals over 2 minutes.

In fight one lasting 2 mins he recieves a total of 1500 damage. his self heals mitigate 1500 damage. INVINCIBLE!
In fight two lasting 2 mins he recieves a total of 5000 damage. his self heals mitigate 1500 damage. Just as they did with less damage.but you're taking 1000 more dmg per 2 minutes than a pld



WAR's need an ability that scales mitigation based on incoming damage. Just as PLD does now. I think it'd be incredibly boring to just increase parry rate of WAR to be comprable to PLD's % style mitigation.

Which is why my vote goes for WAR's self heal ability to scale according to damage recieved.




That's my point. It's as simple as that.

[Derza]

No. You raise your HP + raise you EHP. Which is more than raising just your HP by stacking VIT and not including mitigation on top of it.
.

Yes i know what you were saying i just don't see how it applies to what the other guy you quoted said. You can't raise your EHP to surpass a paladin no matter what stats you go with the difference is just to large once you get to titan/coil. I did some calculations in some other posts... the threshold for when a paladin surpasses a warrior in tanking mitigation is somewhere in the 300-400 incoming dps range. That basically means warriors are better in most 4 man dungeons situations and never better in any 8 man +, at least how the game is right now.

[Terabyt3]

Yes i know what you were saying i just don't see how it applies to what the other guy you quoted said. You can't raise your EHP to surpass a paladin no matter what stats you go with the difference is just to large once you get to titan/coil. I did some calculations in some other posts... the threshold for when a paladin surpasses a warrior in tanking mitigation is somewhere in the 300-400 incoming dps range. That basically means warriors are better in most 4 man dungeons situations and never better in any 8 man +, at least how the game is right now.

I hadn't worked it out but that was the gist I was getting at.

Below a certain incoming DPS Warrior is better.
As it goes above that certain incoming DPS PLD starts pulling away and becomes better.

ATM coils and titan are way above that certain incoming DPS.


Titan is entirely possible as a WAR I've tanked it before. But it does require more effort from the healers.

Derza can you gimme a link to the calculations for the threshold of incoming dps and where the boundary is?

[Derza]

Derza can you gimme a link to the calculations for the threshold of incoming dps and where the boundary is?

I did my calculations using Defiance + IB vs Shield Oath. You can go to page 15 and see where someone did calculations comparing the cd's.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...se-tank/page12

[Tassos]

Why do you all seem so eager to make this happen? If a buff happens, and they don't balance it somehow, a skilled Warrior will completely decimate a skilled PLD at endgame and the situation will flip like a piece in Go.

Pieces don't flip in GO. I believe you are thinking of othello, a completely different game....
Anyways... Proceed.

[Terabyt3]

Lol that's my thread when I didn't even consider the fixed mitigation vs. variable mitigation aspect!

It's nice to know that WAR's are better at something though. Unfortunately high incoming damage is not it.

[Hachiko]

What I don't get is people who complain that WARs self-heals don't scale with oncoming damage but then turn people away from doing things that would go toward self healing by saying if they don't put as much HP on their bar as possible they're doing it wrong.

If you want the self-heals to keep going up, you have to put in the stats and the gear to do that. It's not something that just happens. You get out of self healing what you put into it. =/

That's kind of the point of this whole exercise. Did you completely miss the second post? The point was looking at how big of an inner beast you would need as a WAR to match the mitigation from a Paladin. But I guess your little lamentation highlights one of the prime imbalances. In order to increase WAR mitigation one has to sacrifice EHP. For a PLD it is something that "just happens".

Take a look at paladins. In AK, a PLD will mitigate 60-80 DPS. In BC a PLD with the same gear will mitigate 160-300 DPS. And this is the mitigation contribution from Shield Oath alone.

Now think about the WAR. In AK a WAR with Relic +1 and full DL gear is going to mitigate ~70 DPS on average. In BC a WAR with the same gear is going to mitigate ~70 DPS.

This is where the imbalance comes from. Yes, WAR can increase their mitigation but a) not to the levels necessary to tank endgame content, and b) they can only do so by sacrificing EHP.

So lets say you use 3 DPS accessories and put 30 points to STR instead of VIT. Let's pretend, for the sake of argument, that this increases Inner Beast damage by 100 per Inner Beast. This leaves you down 60 VIT but up 100 mitigation per inner beast.

This means that now instead of mitigating 70 DPS you're mitigating 75 DPS. But instead of having 7200 HP you now have 6200 HP.

So if a boss has ~1000 DPS, without increasing your mitigation you would be able to survive for ~7 seconds on average. If you increased your mitigation you'll be around for ~6 seconds on average.

You're sacrificing 15% of your EHP, in order to gain a 7% increase in the damage you mitigate (and that isn't 7% of the monster damage, that's 7% more HP mitigated, as an expression of incoming damage, you only mitigate .5% more). It may seem like "hey as long as you aren't dying instantly, that's good!" but that's not what it's like from a healer's point of view. They now have 15% less time to react to the damage you take, and 15% less time to get your HP up. That is not a good tradeoff for cutting off .5% of the monster dps output.

This is why people say to stack VIT for endgame content.

Further, the point was that there is no way to increase your damage enough that you would be able to compare to PLD mitigation at high levels of incoming damage. You are not magically going to be hitting 4k heals from inner beast. If we could, we would be candidates for top DPS while in tank stance. If our Inner Beasts could get that big that would be a 66 DPS contribution to our damage output alone simply using Inner Beast every cooldown. That would put our Skull Sunder average at 500 damage. You can not get that much damage in the game. I thought this point was pretty obvious in the second post.

The problem is a "self heal"/"Drain" tank can scale heals in 3 ways (roughly)
1) On DPS stats - e.g. what we have now.
2) On Tank stats - e.g. Inner Beast heals for 30% of your max HP, or Inner Beast heals for 50% of your missing HP.
3) On incoming damage - e.g. Inner Beast heals for 50% of the damage you've taken over the past 5 seconds.

The top one is the most problematic - it will always be either extremely Overpowered at early game and balanced lategame, or Extremely underpowered lategame and balanced early game (we are in the latter). They need to look at another option, or throw early game balance to the wind.

PLD has both, you just can't have them both occur at the same time. I believe (?) WAR has a higher parry rate, though.

WAR only has a higher effective parry rate because they can't both occur at the same time. e.g. looked at a parse for a PLD yesterday of 2000 attacks, 200 blocks (10%) and ~300 parries (~15%)

For a WAR it was ~350 parries (~17%).

But if you cut the blocks off of the 2000 attacks, it leaves 1800 "parry candidate" hits. And 300/1800 =~17%.

The jobs have the same Parry rate. It's just paladin has less actual parries because they have blocks, which are better.