XIV WAR Tanking - Baseline Mitigation and PLD comparison

[Hachiko]

What I don't get is people who complain that WARs self-heals don't scale with oncoming damage but then turn people away from doing things that would go toward self healing by saying if they don't put as much HP on their bar as possible they're doing it wrong.

If you want the self-heals to keep going up, you have to put in the stats and the gear to do that. It's not something that just happens. You get out of self healing what you put into it. =/

That's kind of the point of this whole exercise. Did you completely miss the second post? The point was looking at how big of an inner beast you would need as a WAR to match the mitigation from a Paladin. But I guess your little lamentation highlights one of the prime imbalances. In order to increase WAR mitigation one has to sacrifice EHP. For a PLD it is something that "just happens".

Take a look at paladins. In AK, a PLD will mitigate 60-80 DPS. In BC a PLD with the same gear will mitigate 160-300 DPS. And this is the mitigation contribution from Shield Oath alone.

Now think about the WAR. In AK a WAR with Relic +1 and full DL gear is going to mitigate ~70 DPS on average. In BC a WAR with the same gear is going to mitigate ~70 DPS.

This is where the imbalance comes from. Yes, WAR can increase their mitigation but a) not to the levels necessary to tank endgame content, and b) they can only do so by sacrificing EHP.

So lets say you use 3 DPS accessories and put 30 points to STR instead of VIT. Let's pretend, for the sake of argument, that this increases Inner Beast damage by 100 per Inner Beast. This leaves you down 60 VIT but up 100 mitigation per inner beast.

This means that now instead of mitigating 70 DPS you're mitigating 75 DPS. But instead of having 7200 HP you now have 6200 HP.

So if a boss has ~1000 DPS, without increasing your mitigation you would be able to survive for ~7 seconds on average. If you increased your mitigation you'll be around for ~6 seconds on average.

You're sacrificing 15% of your EHP, in order to gain a 7% increase in the damage you mitigate (and that isn't 7% of the monster damage, that's 7% more HP mitigated, as an expression of incoming damage, you only mitigate .5% more). It may seem like "hey as long as you aren't dying instantly, that's good!" but that's not what it's like from a healer's point of view. They now have 15% less time to react to the damage you take, and 15% less time to get your HP up. That is not a good tradeoff for cutting off .5% of the monster dps output.

This is why people say to stack VIT for endgame content.

Further, the point was that there is no way to increase your damage enough that you would be able to compare to PLD mitigation at high levels of incoming damage. You are not magically going to be hitting 4k heals from inner beast. If we could, we would be candidates for top DPS while in tank stance. If our Inner Beasts could get that big that would be a 66 DPS contribution to our damage output alone simply using Inner Beast every cooldown. That would put our Skull Sunder average at 500 damage. You can not get that much damage in the game. I thought this point was pretty obvious in the second post.

The problem is a "self heal"/"Drain" tank can scale heals in 3 ways (roughly)
1) On DPS stats - e.g. what we have now.
2) On Tank stats - e.g. Inner Beast heals for 30% of your max HP, or Inner Beast heals for 50% of your missing HP.
3) On incoming damage - e.g. Inner Beast heals for 50% of the damage you've taken over the past 5 seconds.

The top one is the most problematic - it will always be either extremely Overpowered at early game and balanced lategame, or Extremely underpowered lategame and balanced early game (we are in the latter). They need to look at another option, or throw early game balance to the wind.

PLD has both, you just can't have them both occur at the same time. I believe (?) WAR has a higher parry rate, though.

WAR only has a higher effective parry rate because they can't both occur at the same time. e.g. looked at a parse for a PLD yesterday of 2000 attacks, 200 blocks (10%) and ~300 parries (~15%)

For a WAR it was ~350 parries (~17%).

But if you cut the blocks off of the 2000 attacks, it leaves 1800 "parry candidate" hits. And 300/1800 =~17%.

The jobs have the same Parry rate. It's just paladin has less actual parries because they have blocks, which are better.

[dandelions]

You can just see HiirNoivl and Lhun's mind's melting in this thread... unable to grasp situations and context outside their immediate surroundings, trying to make points that have already been blatantly and preemptively contradicted by the original post which is supported by simple logic and math. Love how they throw in personal conclusions based neither facts or testing, but on wild theories in their head supported by delusions of self importance and grandeur.

Using every CD at your disposal perfectly along with the best possible gear in game at the moment will not net you the returns of a straight 20% damage reduction. While talking about raids and end game content and current scaling of incoming boss dmg vs outgoing player dmg: there's a wall, as long as mechanics stay the same, Paladin will always be noticeably superior progression tanks, while Warriors (depending on gear/content level) will generally be the superior "Farm Status" tank.

This is a problem for most players who rolled a Warrior and want to be involved with end game content.

[Kupo_Nut]

You can just see HiirNoivl and Lhun's mind's melting in this thread... unable to grasp situations and context outside their immediate surroundings, trying to make points that have already been blatantly and preemptively contradicted by the original post which is supported by simple logic and math. Love how they throw in personal conclusions based neither facts or testing, but on wild theories in their head supported by delusions of self importance and grandeur.

guess what, those 2 are in my ignore list since a long time ago from other topics, I just wonder why ppl are wasting their time with them.

[Judge_Xero]

Mitigate DPS.

Again, great post. That's a great way to equally compare both classes in order to see where Warrior is lacking, to see if it's even possible to bring it up to snuff with Paladin.

My Warrior testing so far shows using LT Labyrs with 367 STR I will have 57.525 DPS Mitigation (only Inner Beast @ 20s)
With Bravura and ~427 STR it could reach ~78 DPS Mitigation
Depending on Crit% say 50% with stacking Crit Rate you could reach 97.5 DPS Mitigation
Adding Buffs (Maim/Storm's Eye already Included) Berserk, Second Wind, Inner Release etc would push it to ~170 DPS Mitigation - But you would still need it timed to not waste any overheal.
How much would the extra 8% (average) healing account towards damage mitigation? @ 1200 heal per GCD it's ~ 38.4 DPS Mitigation

So between Warrior and the heal bonus it would be ~208 DPS Mitigation, which still doesn't match Paladin's max of 300 given that that's accurate.

That would be sacrificing enough HP that Warrior in Defiance would have about the same HP as Paladin.

Crit Rate Testing would need to be done to see how it scales on Inner Beast (I'm probably being generous @ 50% with Crit Gear on Inner Beast) + Average HPS would greatly infuence the results 1200 @ 2.5s = 38.4 and 2000 @ 2.5 = 64