XIV WAR Tanking - Baseline Mitigation and PLD comparison

[HiirNoivl]

What I don't get is people who complain that WARs self-heals don't scale with oncoming damage but then turn people away from doing things that would go toward self healing by saying if they don't put as much HP on their bar as possible they're doing it wrong.

If you want the self-heals to keep going up, you have to put in the stats and the gear to do that. It's not something that just happens. You get out of self healing what you put into it. =/

[Rios-Drakoon]

What I don't get is people who complain that WARs self-heals don't scale with oncoming damage but then turn people away from doing things that would go toward self healing by saying if they don't put as much HP on their bar as possible they're doing it wrong.

If you want the self-heals to keep going up, you have to put in the stats and the gear to do that. It's not something that just happens. You get out of self healing what you put into it. =/

Even if i double my dmg right now, the selfheal (beside IB) will still suck.
Now Bloodbath 20-90 Heals, (90 was most a crit or with Berserk)
Stormspath 100-150

Double it, and you see, still sucking.

The probem is "healing with dmg done" is bullshit. My HP increased from fresh 50 5xxxHP to 6800HP, first i was skilled 30 Vit, then i did 10 STR 20 Vit, my dmg increased by 5 or 6 Points, my IB increased my for 30 Points. Bloodbath? 1-3 Points or so.

The should scale Selfheal with Max%HP. because our HP Pool will increase more then our dmg.

[Terabyt3]

What I don't get is people who complain that WARs self-heals don't scale with oncoming damage but then turn people away from doing things that would go toward self healing by saying if they don't put as much HP on their bar as possible they're doing it wrong.

If you want the self-heals to keep going up, you have to put in the stats and the gear to do that. It's not something that just happens. You get out of self healing what you put into it. =/

Even then your self heals are a fixed value. And your PRIME source of mitigation.

PLD's will always vary being % based rather than fixed.

The only problem with not having the HP pool if you increase the risk of dying before getting the chance to self heal. That's why wars have the bigger hp pool. We gotta take the hit BEFORE we mitigate it. Whereas PLD's mitigate it as it hits.

[HiirNoivl]

Even then your self heals are a fixed value. And your PRIME source of mitigation.

PLD's will always vary being % based rather than fixed.

The only problem with not having the HP pool if you increase the risk of dying before getting the chance to self heal. That's why wars have the bigger hp pool. We gotta take the hit BEFORE we mitigate it. Whereas PLD's mitigate it as it hits.

I increase my STR and VIT in sync, not separately. So as my HP pool goes up so does my mitigation. There's no downside to this.

[Terabyt3]

I increase my STR and VIT in sync, not separately. So as my HP pool goes up so does my mitigation. There's no downside to this.

except that damage output and parry mitigation are controlled by STR "walls". Unless your STR is a certain ammount you will not do more dmg.

Example you are at 200 STR. The next wall is 220.

If you put 19 points in str nothing will happen.

Put 1 more in and you reach that break point. your %parry increases as does your dmg output.


Even with what you are saying your MAIN way of mitigationg damage is self heals. Which is static and does not vary.

[HiirNoivl]

except that damage output and parry mitigation are controlled by STR "walls". Unless your STR is a certain ammount you will not do more dmg.

Example you are at 200 STR. The next wall is 220.

If you put 19 points in str nothing will happen.

Put 1 more in and you reach that break point. your %parry increases as does your dmg output.


Even with what you are saying your MAIN way of mitigationg damage is self heals. Which is static and does not vary.

So what's your point?

What exactly does that have to do with anything he said? You still can't increase your str enough to overcome the mitigation differences between the classes... and if you did you wouldn't have the HP to take the hits... See the downside?

No. You raise your HP + raise you EHP. Which is more than raising just your HP by stacking VIT and not including mitigation on top of it.

You're talking to someone who Tanks Caduceus with 6700 HP. It's not rocket science. If I'm sitting at near full health at the turn of 3 stacks, then something must be going right. I'm getting to the point where I'm outliving PLDs.

I hadn't worked it out but that was the gist I was getting at.

Below a certain incoming DPS Warrior is better.
As it goes above that certain incoming DPS PLD starts pulling away and becomes better.

ATM coils and titan are way above that certain incoming DPS.


Titan is entirely possible as a WAR I've tanked it before. But it does require more effort from the healers.

Derza can you gimme a link to the calculations for the threshold of incoming dps and where the boundary is?

That would be good information. So yeah I'm interested in hearing that to. Would take out a lot of guess work.

I'm just not feeling you. While I'm sure people who haven't had my experiences may agree with your theorycrafting and hypothetical situations, I go and play and have a grand time and my healers have a grand time. They "work harder" when we hit 4 stacks cuz this WAR don't have to easy-button "lolHallowed Ground" But other than that, I've made believers out of them.

Looking forward to turn 2 tonight.

In order to increase WAR mitigation one has to sacrifice EHP.

No you don't. Inner Beast was never meant to be spammed. I tried that and it didn't work.

I don't sacrifice EHP to use Inner Beast. People who use IB>Infuriate>IB do. Unless the mob is nearly dead, it's not going to work.

You can just see HiirNoivl and Lhun's mind's melting in this thread... unable to grasp situations and context outside their immediate surroundings, trying to make points that have already been blatantly and preemptively contradicted by the original post explained in detail with math and simple logic.

Math and simple logic does not explain my success. You think the math is right but the basic premise is incorrect.

I already figured out that you need a huge IB to make up for the Wrath V. But instead of concluding that WAR was broken, I concluded that my playstyle was wrong and changed it so I wouldn't suffer a loss of EHP based on my own actions.

In short, I L'ed 2 P

EDIT: INB4

More and more hypotheticals and speculation that explains why WAR shouldn't tank at ENDgame

I tank at end game.

To the person wariror tankign Turn 1: Vid please. I really want to see this.

Hi Pied.

I'd love to post a video of my Tanking success! And I would have already!

Unfortunately, Fraps freezes my client. You can see this in my Garuda Video. Even if it's 2 or 3 secs only, that can spell a wipe it if happens when Caduceus's split or at other sensitive times. I'm not about to risk wipes just to satisfy your curiosity. Garuda I can tank with my eyes closed and my screen frozen. Caddie... eeeeeeh... not so much.

But the mechanics of the fight makes mitigating damage easy. Basically the goal is to DPS hard in the beginning and force an early split. Because I can survive up to 4 stacks of steel scales, having it split at 2 stacks isn't that big of a deal since usually a slime pops shortly after that and we can keep it at one.

[Terabyt3]

So what's your point?

For teh simplest example a pld can mitigate 50% damage on average over 2 minutes utilizing abilities and rotations.

In fight one lasting 2 mins he recieves a total of 1500 damage. his abilities (block, damage reduction cooldowns) mitigate 750 damage.
In fight two lasting 2 mins he recieves a total of 5000 damage. his abilities (block, damage reduction cooldowns) mitigate 2500 damage.


A warrior however has mitigation in self heals (parry isnt counted as it is the same or virtually the same as PLD's) and a larger HP pool to allow to have a chance to self heal after taking a hit.
Assuming the Warriors "perfect rotations" allow 1500 hp of self heals over 2 minutes.

In fight one lasting 2 mins he recieves a total of 1500 damage. his self heals mitigate 1500 damage. INVINCIBLE!
In fight two lasting 2 mins he recieves a total of 5000 damage. his self heals mitigate 1500 damage. Just as they did with less damage.but you're taking 1000 more dmg per 2 minutes than a pld



WAR's need an ability that scales mitigation based on incoming damage. Just as PLD does now. I think it'd be incredibly boring to just increase parry rate of WAR to be comprable to PLD's % style mitigation.

Which is why my vote goes for WAR's self heal ability to scale according to damage recieved.




That's my point. It's as simple as that.

[Derza]

No. You raise your HP + raise you EHP. Which is more than raising just your HP by stacking VIT and not including mitigation on top of it.
.

Yes i know what you were saying i just don't see how it applies to what the other guy you quoted said. You can't raise your EHP to surpass a paladin no matter what stats you go with the difference is just to large once you get to titan/coil. I did some calculations in some other posts... the threshold for when a paladin surpasses a warrior in tanking mitigation is somewhere in the 300-400 incoming dps range. That basically means warriors are better in most 4 man dungeons situations and never better in any 8 man +, at least how the game is right now.

[Terabyt3]

Yes i know what you were saying i just don't see how it applies to what the other guy you quoted said. You can't raise your EHP to surpass a paladin no matter what stats you go with the difference is just to large once you get to titan/coil. I did some calculations in some other posts... the threshold for when a paladin surpasses a warrior in tanking mitigation is somewhere in the 300-400 incoming dps range. That basically means warriors are better in most 4 man dungeons situations and never better in any 8 man +, at least how the game is right now.

I hadn't worked it out but that was the gist I was getting at.

Below a certain incoming DPS Warrior is better.
As it goes above that certain incoming DPS PLD starts pulling away and becomes better.

ATM coils and titan are way above that certain incoming DPS.


Titan is entirely possible as a WAR I've tanked it before. But it does require more effort from the healers.

Derza can you gimme a link to the calculations for the threshold of incoming dps and where the boundary is?

[Derza]

I increase my STR and VIT in sync, not separately. So as my HP pool goes up so does my mitigation. There's no downside to this.

What exactly does that have to do with anything he said? You still can't increase your str enough to overcome the mitigation differences between the classes... and if you did you wouldn't have the HP to take the hits... See the downside?