This how i feel tanking as a Warrior^^

[Judge_Xero]

There are a couple of fundamental flaws here.
You almost never want to use IB every time it is up.

My examples were only towards the frequency of high damage hits on Warrior. I didn't mean to imply that keeping up the Infuriate Buff wasn't important.

So while your theory may look good on paper, that's simply not how it works in reality. you need to stop thinking of war as a standalone tank and how effective it is at mitigation damage by itself. That's not the type of class it is.

With or without damage mitigation through HP absorb, the Warrior still relies on the party, same as Paladin. But outside of the boost Warrior gets from Stoneskin (~300 extra over an equally geared Paladin) and 15% increased heals from Infuriate it still lacks the mitigation of Paladin without working with HP absorb. So why choose Warrior over Paladin?

IMO being able to drop a 2k+ self heal every 60 seconds is pretty powerful. That's 50% damage mitigation on a 4k hit. With buffs you could reach 100% mitigation @ 120 second intervals. Definitely worth the loss of 15% increased healing for 20 seconds.

[Bayman]

Y'now, I wonder if its the raid makeup that makes WAR seem less tankie. We have done garuda HM and the healers liked it better with me MT'ing as a WAR and the Pally OT the adds. We have about the same gear sets. We use a WHM and SCH as healers. The SCH can obviously heal and shield me for MUCH more per cast then on the PAL. Yes, WHM has to burn their pool down low to keep me up, but the SCH keeps me up no pressure. The SCH has problems with the pally, but the WHM pairs as main healer with him perfectly.

Everyone stated that WAR *should* be fine. But the group will have to know what kinda tank they have and move on from there. Again, I have not even completed Titan yet as I am still working on my DL. So take it for what it is.

I fully expect the pally to be the MT in coil until better gear options become available.

[Onisake]

My examples were only towards the frequency of high damage hits on Warrior. I didn't mean to imply that keeping up the Infuriate Buff wasn't important.

With or without damage mitigation through HP absorb, the Warrior still relies on the party, same as Paladin. But outside of the boost Warrior gets from Stoneskin (~300 extra over an equally geared Paladin) and 15% increased heals from Infuriate it still lacks the mitigation of Paladin without working with HP absorb. So why choose Warrior over Paladin?

IMO being able to drop a 2k+ self heal every 60 seconds is pretty powerful. That's 50% damage mitigation on a 4k hit. With buffs you could reach 100% mitigation @ 120 second intervals. Definitely worth the loss of 15% increased healing for 20 seconds.

There aren't many reasons to choose war over pld. and that's part of the problem. like seriously, any idiot can play pld. it's not hard at all. in the hands of a truly skilled player paladin is an absolute beast.

Even in the right hands, a WAR feels awkward.

The first real encounter with frequent heavy hits is Titan post-heart phase. mountain buster is far more frequent than every 60 seconds.

For the first one I hit IB=> Infuriate. the second one I hit ToB=>SW. for the third I hit berserk+Bloodbath+vengeance+IR a bit before it happens, then pop conv+mantra as soon as it does.

in a nutshell: the big hits come much faster than once every 60 seconds. you can't afford to lose Wrath V.

[PiedPiper]

IMO being able to drop a 2k+ self heal every 60 seconds is pretty powerful. That's 50% damage mitigation on a 4k hit. With buffs you could reach 100% mitigation @ 120 second intervals. Definitely worth the loss of 15% increased healing for 20 seconds.

Here's the thing though. Cadacus will hit you for over 2-3k as pld (so more as warrior) every 3-5 seconds, not every 60 or 120. You're looking at content like garu (which only has one phase where the tank is getting hit hard, and that's while the damage buff sister is up) and ifrit (which is... lol? its ifrit) and thinking "oh, well 60 seconds isn't so long."Then you get to titan whre mountain buster is about every 30 seconds (its mroe or less perfectly timed with sacred soil cool down, so your'e taking 3/4 hits without your 120 second mitigation. Also, titan normally hits you for as much or more than buffed garuda does, and then goes into stomps on top of all that. Once you start going into content actually designed for ilvl 70+ gaer, you'll find that the damage out put to the tank increases dramatically.

And even if we stick to easier content like garu, the only time I want to do garu is for mythic farm on mondays. In that case I only want to take in one tank, and really, I want that tank to be a paladin from a healer's persepctive. The pld has a powerful cd for each sister phase (though I'm probably only going to see one or two in a farm), has a much better iWin button, and is all around the safer choice. With only one tank healers have to cast more on dps, which means less gcds for the tank, and in all situations, a pld requires fewer gcds cus they reduce damage by 20% and you only buff healing by 15%. Also, if you look at it as a ehp question (such as lustrate as sch), sure, you have 5-10% more hp than the pld for my lustrate to hit, but... the pld will mitigate 20% of that return damage while my lustrate isn't buffed by your healing passive (near as I have been able to test).

Warrior just isn't viable for late game stuff, and it sucks. I wish it was. I play pld, but everyone should be able to play the class they love, and I know that one day pld will probably suffer a similar fate.

[Judge_Xero]

There aren't many reasons to choose war over pld. and that's part of the problem. like seriously, any idiot can play pld. it's not hard at all. in the hands of a truly skilled player paladin is an absolute beast.

Even in the right hands, a WAR feels awkward.

The first real encounter with frequent heavy hits is Titan post-heart phase. mountain buster is far more frequent than every 60 seconds.

For the first one I hit IB=> Infuriate. the second one I hit ToB=>SW. for the third I hit berserk+Bloodbath+vengeance+IR a bit before it happens, then pop conv+mantra as soon as it does.

in a nutshell: the big hits come much faster than once every 60 seconds. you can't afford to lose Wrath V.

Yes it looks like Mountain Buster is exactly 30 second intervals. So you would have to mix things up a little.
Stoneskin Tank + Virus Debuff on Titan etc.

Why not dump IB + Infuriate + IB on the first Mountain Rush. If you get an extra 1100 HP absorb off it - Your healer would need to heal 6k in 7.5 seconds to catch up, at which point you would be 6%-9% buffed again anyways.

Without any other other skills you can recover ~25% of a Mountain Rush with Inner Beast and the Maim/Story's Eye Buff/Debuff (unless you just completely neglect adding any STR) - that's on a 30 second interval.

Here's the thing though. Cadacus will hit you for over 2-3k as pld (so more as warrior) every 3-5 seconds, not every 60 or 120. You're looking at content like garu (which only has one phase where the tank is getting hit hard, and that's while the damage buff sister is up) and ifrit (which is... lol? its ifrit) and thinking "oh, well 60 seconds isn't so long."Then you get to titan whre mountain buster is about every 30 seconds (its mroe or less perfectly timed with sacred soil cool down, so your'e taking 3/4 hits without your 120 second mitigation. Also, titan normally hits you for as much or more than buffed garuda does, and then goes into stomps on top of all that. Once you start going into content actually designed for ilvl 70+ gaer, you'll find that the damage out put to the tank increases dramatically.

And even if we stick to easier content like garu, the only time I want to do garu is for mythic farm on mondays. In that case I only want to take in one tank, and really, I want that tank to be a paladin from a healer's persepctive. The pld has a powerful cd for each sister phase (though I'm probably only going to see one or two in a farm), has a much better iWin button, and is all around the safer choice. With only one tank healers have to cast more on dps, which means less gcds for the tank, and in all situations, a pld requires fewer gcds cus they reduce damage by 20% and you only buff healing by 15%. Also, if you look at it as a ehp question (such as lustrate as sch), sure, you have 5-10% more hp than the pld for my lustrate to hit, but... the pld will mitigate 20% of that return damage while my lustrate isn't buffed by your healing passive (near as I have been able to test).

Warrior just isn't viable for late game stuff, and it sucks. I wish it was. I play pld, but everyone should be able to play the class they love, and I know that one day pld will probably suffer a similar fate.

Bahamuts Coil sounds brutal regardless of what tank is used.

Most the vids I checked out both tanks take ~ 14k damage in 60s intervals +/-3k against Cadacus with some hits being 2-3k

[ApolloGenX]

IMO being able to drop a 2k+ self heal every 60 seconds is pretty powerful. That's 50% damage mitigation on a 4k hit. With buffs you could reach 100% mitigation @ 120 second intervals. Definitely worth the loss of 15% increased healing for 20 seconds.

Sorry, but this doesn't sound right to me as a healer. 2k self heal isn't that much... and 15 % is substantial. If I am healing a tank for 20 seconds, I am pretty sure I would prefer he/she have the 15 percent heal buff than a 2k heal.

The reason why is that if spike is an issue- then I would rather have the buff- because if I heal for 13k, it's a break even... I can do that in 20 seconds. Multiple healers easily do this much.

Spikes are where the healers are really struggling to keep health up, so handicapping by losing the bonus seems like a bad idea. If it's easy to heal damage, then there's just no need for the loss of stacks- healers will keep you up fine.

When healing a warrior, I tell them to keep stacks. It's my job to heal you- not yours. You keep stacks and aggro, and that makes things easier on everyone.

[Onisake]

Why not dump IB + Infuriate + IB on the first Mountain Rush. If you get an extra 1100 HP absorb off it - Your healer would need to heal 6k in 7.5 seconds to catch up, at which point you would be 6%-9% buffed again anyways.

Outside of the 60 second interval you would have to improvise with mixing IR, Berserk, SW and IB together

It's far too risky to follow the first Mountainbuster with a double IB because he follows it up with stomps. your healer will soon begin spam healing the group, with Wrath V it makes the heals more effective on you. without it, they have to spend extra MP to get you near capped, and then go immediately into AoE heal spam. this is incredibly taxing on MP. Wrath V up throughout and only a single IB they can usually get away with a single C3 into the AoE spam heals. so the answer is, as always, you can't afford to lose your Wrath V.


you could do it after the second mountain buster, as the following moves are easily avoidable. however he only has 3 move rotations before he begins his rotation again with another mountain buster. essentially it leaves you woefully unprepared for the next big heal you need to receive. you're better off doing something else, than scrambling to rebuild wrath. he's still hitting you afterall. you're essentially making your healers burn extra MP right before another big AoE spam. that's why I save conv+mantra for the third mountain buster. it reduces the stress on them significantly, because i'm receiving ~35% extra healing on top of refreshing myself with bloodbath+berserk

[CurlyBruce]

The SCH can obviously heal and shield me for MUCH more per cast then on the PAL.

Why is it people still don't understand that this is simply not the case? Shield Oath grants the PLD 25% bonus effective HP, equivalent to a WAR in Defiance, but also grants a permanent 25% heal boost as well due to the way % damage reduction works. An Adloquim or Stoneskin on WAR will be just as potent on a PLD in their respective stances.

[Hachiko]

The reason why is that if spike is an issue- then I would rather have the buff- because if I heal for 13k, it's a break even... I can do that in 20 seconds. Multiple healers easily do this much.

...

When healing a warrior, I tell them to keep stacks. It's my job to heal you- not yours. You keep stacks and aggro, and that makes things easier on everyone.

In fairness, it doesn't drop the 15% buff for the whole time. Over the 20 seconds it's going to average out to about 8% healing buff rather than 15%. Aside from that, it is the Warrior's job to heal themselves. That's our primary tanking mechanic and our only way to mitigate damage.

If someone were dropping routine 2k heal inner beasts (extremely unlikely, you're only going to hit 2k on a crit, or with other cooldowns like Berserk), it would generally be worth it to do so.

If you took it down to a more reasonable and likely number like 1.5k, then it gets a bit more iffy. You are missing out on ~7% healing averaged over the 20 seconds, which means that if you are receiving less than 21k heals in those 20 seconds it's generally preferable to drop the inner beast because you will presumably drop it after you take spike damage, when you need it most.

In a solo healer situation, it's going to be nearly impossible for a single healer to heal 21k worth of healing in 20 seconds, which is why it's worth doing. And realistically, if you're taking more than 1k damage per second, it's going to be a real rough ride in general. By my estimate the only situations that get that high against a WAR are 4-5 stack cadeceus, Double Dreadnaught, and Twintania. Which are all things the WAR is incapable of tanking anyway, and this is presumably a contributing factor.

Why is it people still don't understand that this is simply not the case? Shield Oath grants the PLD 25% bonus effective HP, equivalent to a WAR in Defiance, but also grants a permanent 25% heal boost as well due to the way % damage reduction works. An Adloquim or Stoneskin on WAR will be just as potent on a PLD in their respective stances.

Stoneskin is equally potent. Lustrate is equally potent. But Adloquium is significantly more potent when cast on a PLD since the shield is based on healing done.

[CurlyBruce]

Stoneskin is equally potent. Lustrate is equally potent. But Adloquium is significantly more potent when cast on a PLD since the shield is based on healing done.

True, I was generalizing since Stoneskin/Adloquium/anything Cure related makes people seem to think WAR's visible 25% HP/15% healing buff gives them an advantage. In fact pretty much all buffs/cures are better on a PLD because of Shield Blocks and cooldowns that apply % damage reduction boost healing as well and will retroactively increase Stoneskins buff.