Matsui's battle system information - Next week!

[Physic]

By including auto-attack you have to change everything else in some way. There are balancing issues by including auto-attack and not altering the formulas, stamina costs (if there is even a stamina bar in the end), TP costs, WS modifiers and spell modifiers.

All of these things not only change our potency in our classes, but how we play and how we build our character. If they just include auto-attack and be the end of it, not only is that incredibly ignorant on the developer's part, it's just as ignorant for the client to assume there isn't more along with it's implementation.

Adjusting the formulas could also mean the possibility for specific class allotment as well. Something many people are waiting for so they can viably play between a war and magic class.

There are good reasons to speculate that this will be a big change. Even though your eyes cannot see it, a lot changes with auto-attack.

oh i know that there will be a lot of balancing with auto attack, but how is that really going to change the feel of combat for the people who wanted it changed? i mean it will be pretty different for me, but the vibe i got from people who want it changed was that they were just spamming 1. They may drastically alter the combat but i doubt it, its just going to be a watered down version of what we have now. possibly with weapon delay in there, which i dunno how thats going to feel

lets think about it, as far as actual battle, the only feature they mentioned was auto attack. they can juggle around the rest of the game, but juggling and rebalancing isnt really adding anything, they most likely arent going to change the skills, or the interactions, i doubt we will see combos, im just saying what do you see them changing other than auto attack and tweaks around auto attack.

there may be some interesting things coming, like dunegons, hubs, they may make some skills class exclusive, but combat? its probably just going to be more ffxi like but slightly faster.

the real key to making combat feel more entertaining will be when they make monsters tougher or increase the exp cap, and add monsters that roam in packs and varied monster type groups.

It will be interesting to see what they come up with, but i wouldnt get to crazy considering this is just supposed to be the 1st part of the battle additions. Far as stats, i dont see them doing anything drastic with them this patch, maybe in the second part. Fixed stats per class kind of sucks, but its probably what we are going to get.

[BruceyBruceyBangBang]

oh i know that there will be a lot of balancing with auto attack, but how is that really going to change the feel of combat for the people who wanted it changed? i mean it will be pretty different for me, but the vibe i got from people who want it changed was that they were just spamming 1. They may drastically alter the combat but i doubt it, its just going to be a watered down version of what we have now. possibly with weapon delay in there, which i dunno how thats going to feel

If you look at their plans for their battle system in previous fan site interviews, along with auto-attack there is mention of skills, stat formulas, and modifiers being adjusted in order to make these changes cohesive. How this changes the battle system and makes things different is very simple. You have to rethink how to build your class. Also, we will be seeing a change in mob difficulty and strategy. They could very well change mob behavior to not over power the new implementation of battle changes.

lets think about it, as far as actual battle, the only feature they mentioned was auto attack. they can juggle around the rest of the game, but juggling and rebalancing isnt really adding anything, they most likely arent going to change the skills, or the interactions, i doubt we will see combos, im just saying what do you see them changing other than auto attack and tweaks around auto attack.

This is where I think you're completely wrong. Balancing is adding something because it is altering skill modifiers and stat formulas. Making the stat formulas more potent, but shrinking the pool adds several layers to one class in terms of allotment. This is when you actually start to work out builds specific to the user's play style.

It will be interesting to see what they come up with, but i wouldnt get to crazy considering this is just supposed to be the 1st part of the battle additions. Far as stats, i dont see them doing anything drastic with them this patch, maybe in the second part. Fixed stats per class kind of sucks, but its probably what we are going to get.

Again, you cannot add in or take out any system and not have it effect the rest of the game. When you say, "Meh, they'll prolly just add in auto-attacks and not really change anything else." It just simply cannot work like that. I'm not demanding this, I'm simply stating a fact. You cannot add in or take out content especially involving the battle system while leaving everything else alone.

If you do this, you will fail. So, the expectations of the player base are not set very high and no one is getting "crazy". They are set to what is bare minimally practical.

[kukurumei]

oh i know that there will be a lot of balancing with auto attack, but how is that really going to change the feel of combat for the people who wanted it changed? i mean it will be pretty different for me, but the vibe i got from people who want it changed was that they were just spamming 1. They may drastically alter the combat but i doubt it, its just going to be a watered down version of what we have now. possibly with weapon delay in there, which i dunno how thats going to feel

lets think about it, as far as actual battle, the only feature they mentioned was auto attack. they can juggle around the rest of the game, but juggling and rebalancing isnt really adding anything, they most likely arent going to change the skills, or the interactions, i doubt we will see combos, im just saying what do you see them changing other than auto attack and tweaks around auto attack.

there may be some interesting things coming, like dunegons, hubs, they may make some skills class exclusive, but combat? its probably just going to be more ffxi like but slightly faster.

the real key to making combat feel more entertaining will be when they make monsters tougher or increase the exp cap, and add monsters that roam in packs and varied monster type groups.

It will be interesting to see what they come up with, but i wouldnt get to crazy considering this is just supposed to be the 1st part of the battle additions. Far as stats, i dont see them doing anything drastic with them this patch, maybe in the second part. Fixed stats per class kind of sucks, but its probably what we are going to get.

Just having Auto Attack will change the whole damage calculation procedure, and will directly change even monster patterns. It's like suddenly allowing a calculator in a math test, the test itself will change because it has to accommodate the calculator, thus the people who take the test, study for the test, and the scoring itself will inevitably be changed.

Can you imagine long-handing a calculus test, or even a simple algebra test? Not anymore, you would spend half your time, carrying ones and double checking digits. Those test by giving you a calculator focuses are testing procedure and logic.

There's no such thing as a minor change when it comes to stuff like this. It maybe in waves, but even then, they'll be big waves.

Just look at FF11, auto attack itself grew tactics around equipment management, party communication, skill stacking, and timer counting.

[Bled]

Just having Auto Attack will change the whole damage calculation procedure, and will directly change even monster patterns. It's like suddenly allowing a calculator in a math test, the test itself will change because it has to accommodate the calculator, thus the people who take the test, study for the test, and the scoring itself will inevitably be changed.

Can you imagine long-handing a calculus test, or even a simple algebra test? Not anymore, you would spend half your time, carrying ones and double checking digits. Those test by giving you a calculator focuses are testing procedure and logic.

There's no such thing as a minor change when it comes to stuff like this. It maybe in waves, but even then, they'll be big waves.

Just look at FF11, auto attack itself grew tactics around equipment management, party communication, skill stacking, and timer counting.

Your example does not apply to the current predicament. In a school/test setting you have students who are learning new material. In a corporate programming setting you have professionals who are hand picked, highly skilled, for the most part seasoned, and paid good money. An implementation of auto attack does not turn the game completely upside down.. were talking pretty simple balances for a corporate programing team.

Of course that is my honest opinion, I'm no programmer and i have only seen it done from a third party stand point, but how its explained to me does not sound like it would be considered an "overhaul" like Yoshi said.

[Burn]

Here's what I want to see when its all done over the next few updates.

- Classes to be unique, Conjurer's should have to pick whether they want to be a Black Mage or a White Mage, We don't need FFXI: SMN2.0 where you're only brought to the endgame event because you can cure people when we get more challenging content.

- Protect and Shell to last 30 minutes, All buff's are now auto-aoe.

- Stamina to either be removed or heavily modified so it doesn't hinder the speed of battle. I just think it slows down the battle pace way too much because you're waiting on it to refill to hit the next action.

- I would like to see an Aggro meter under the current targets HP BAR, 0-25% the bar is blue, 25-75% the bar is yellow, 75-100% you're about to get aggro and goes red.

- Abilities generate way to much aggro like Bloodbath, ferocity etc.

- Animation locks to be completely done away with. I like the sidestepping of certain tp moves but animation locking currently makes this a really bad mechanic.

- Active and passive mode done away with, seriously, its nothing but a slowdown and screws over abilities like "quickstride" by the time you go from active to passive 4-5 seconds is almost wasted. LNC's fleet of foot will have to be changed into a buff of some sort.

- Stats working, this just blows my mind they don't work correctly.

- DLVL becoming much more balanced, level difference is too overpowered in current combat.

This is basically what I'm expecting over the next few updates.

[Physic]

heres what im really getting at, yes auto attack will require some balancing, and require some new calculations to deal with it.
But how does that really change things in a way that makes everything better, i think some people are expecting too much in terms of change.
/like some one said its like adding a calculator to a test, its still a math class, if you had no problems doing hand calculations the test isnt really going to be THAT different. From how some people are talking, its like they expect these additions to turn it into a creative writing class or gym, its still gonna be a math class is what im saying.

I could be wrong, they could change the battle system qualitatively, but if they do it will have to involve some real new features, it wont really be about auto attack.

Just look at FF11, auto attack itself grew tactics around equipment management, party communication, skill stacking, and timer counting.

the only thing auto attack effected in ffxi is having to turn around mid fight, the only stat that effected auto attack was haste. party communication, skill stacking and timer counting have nothing to do with auto attack, and all are prevalent in this game when you fight real fights.

This is where I think you're completely wrong. Balancing is adding something because it is altering skill modifiers and stat formulas. Making the stat formulas more potent, but shrinking the pool adds several layers to one class in terms of allotment. This is when you actually start to work out builds specific to the user's play style.

making the stat formulas more potent may or may not happen, but auto attack does not require or even suggest that they would have to do this. All you have to do with auto attack, is decide how much of your damage you expect auto attack to do as compared with regular attacks now, then divide the effect. If you decide people were able to get 200 dps on monster thier level with normal attacks before, and you want them to get 100 dps with auto attacks now, you just have to divide the damage formula by 2.

Im just saying there really is no need to drastically rework stat calculations effect for the sake of auto attack, they may do it, but its not really required, and isnt really linked to them shrinking the stat pool. They could just as easily increase the stat pool.

[Rentahamster]

Excellent points, I agree with most of it

I especially like this one:

- I would like to see an Aggro meter under the current targets HP BAR, 0-25% the bar is blue, 25-75% the bar is yellow, 75-100% you're about to get aggro and goes red.

It might be hard to read with multiple targets, though.

[Vesperia]

All of that sounds so boring to me.

[Rentahamster]

If I had to choose, I'd prefer they lean towards a more action-RPG type of battle system like Tera/Monster Hunter, but I guess we'll see what we're gonna be getting with the new battle system info next week.

[Munba]

I imagine it will be an evolved (and deeper) version of the FF11 one. We'll see.