Matsui's battle system information - Next week!

[Physic]

Here's what I want to see when its all done over the next few updates.

- Classes to be unique, Conjurer's should have to pick whether they want to be a Black Mage or a White Mage, We don't need FFXI: SMN2.0 where you're only brought to the endgame event because you can cure people when we get more challenging content.

- Protect and Shell to last 30 minutes, All buff's are now auto-aoe.

- Stamina to either be removed or heavily modified so it doesn't hinder the speed of battle. I just think it slows down the battle pace way too much because you're waiting on it to refill to hit the next action.

- I would like to see an Aggro meter under the current targets HP BAR, 0-25% the bar is blue, 25-75% the bar is yellow, 75-100% you're about to get aggro and goes red.

- Abilities generate way to much aggro like Bloodbath, ferocity etc.

- Animation locks to be completely done away with. I like the sidestepping of certain tp moves but animation locking currently makes this a really bad mechanic.

- Active and passive mode done away with, seriously, its nothing but a slowdown and screws over abilities like "quickstride" by the time you go from active to passive 4-5 seconds is almost wasted. LNC's fleet of foot will have to be changed into a buff of some sort.

- Stats working, this just blows my mind they don't work correctly.

- DLVL becoming much more balanced, level difference is too overpowered in current combat.

This is basically what I'm expecting over the next few updates.

expecting? or wanting? because i never saw them mention anything about aggro monsters, and i think people might not like that idea.
Btw stats work, correctly, they just said its complicated. I did some testing and i see the past relationships roughly. but its pretty likely that they are going to alter stats in some way, they may take out stat allocation completely.

Active and passive mode is another thing i never saw them mentioning, they may choose to get rid of it, but i wouldnt expect it. And personally i dont think it would add much to the game if they did. btw if they wanted quickstride to not be effected by active and passive, it would be simpler to just make it a buff that doesnt require active mode, like all the gathering run speed skills. I think it was intended that you can choose to lose a few seconds, its faster than regular run speed even with your weapon drawn i believe.

[Duelle]

- Classes to be unique, Conjurer's should have to pick whether they want to be a Black Mage or a White Mage, We don't need FFXI: SMN2.0 where you're only brought to the endgame event because you can cure people when we get more challenging content.

The only way that type of play would die is if you entirely lock out damage-centered casters from cures. Even if you add penalties to non-healing casters and toss in a trait to add cure potency, all you'd end up with is the "accepted" builds for casters including that trait and still shafting them with cure duty.

I'm more partial to maintaining class flavor and accepting overlaps where reasonable. Jobs like Thief and Ninja could then technically be two different approaches to the same method. Thief being the guy that learns his dirty tricks on the streets while the Ninja could be the guy that was trained to do what he does. That also reduces the chances of fiacos like utsusemi repeating themselves while making both acceptable for a damage role (unlike XI where THF was shackled to the bad gimmick that was emnity control and NIN was taken in a completely different direction than intended).

- Protect and Shell to last 30 minutes, All buff's are now auto-aoe.

100% agree here.

- Stamina to either be removed or heavily modified so it doesn't hinder the speed of battle. I just think it slows down the battle pace way too much because you're waiting on it to refill to hit the next action.

I'm iffy on the topic of stamina, if only because I saw how haste was part of the arms race amongst melee classes in FFXI (store TP being the other part).

- Animation locks to be completely done away with. I like the sidestepping of certain tp moves but animation locking currently makes this a really bad mechanic.

This should have died with the new game engine. Animation locking was partly excused because of the PS2 limitations, but to see this again in a "next gen" MMO is disappointing.

- Active and passive mode done away with, seriously, its nothing but a slowdown and screws over abilities like "quickstride" by the time you go from active to passive 4-5 seconds is almost wasted. LNC's fleet of foot will have to be changed into a buff of some sort.

I agree on the transition from "weapons sheathed" to "in combat" needs to be streamlined.

Personally, I'm more curious to hear how class dynamics are going to be affected by the overhaul.

The concept of strategy worries me a bit, because in the context of encounters you'd need to add something beyond "stand in one spot and spam a certain weaponskill to trigger an incap". Of course, in Duelle Land that means boss mechanics and extra things to do during a fight (like a boss at the end of a Garlean Fortress that requires the off-tank to ride on a machine that suspiciously looks like magitek armor to assist the raid during the first two phases of the encounter), or the encounter itself reacting to your group composition (a boss doing certain things if you bring too many mage classes, something else if you bring too many melee, running in circles yelling "I AM SO CONFUSED" if you bring hybrids like Red Mages). The reason for my worries being that XI's encounter design was far from impressive.

I wouldn't want to see that applied to open world mobs, though. Can't really make every mob you decide to fight feel like a boss. Makes things kinda silly, IMO.

[Physic]

heres what im really getting at, yes auto attack will require some balancing, and require some new calculations to deal with it.
But how does that really change things in a way that makes everything better, i think some people are expecting too much in terms of change.
/like some one said its like adding a calculator to a test, its still a math class, if you had no problems doing hand calculations the test isnt really going to be THAT different. From how some people are talking, its like they expect these additions to turn it into a creative writing class or gym, its still gonna be a math class is what im saying.

I could be wrong, they could change the battle system qualitatively, but if they do it will have to involve some real new features, it wont really be about auto attack.

Just look at FF11, auto attack itself grew tactics around equipment management, party communication, skill stacking, and timer counting.

the only thing auto attack effected in ffxi is having to turn around mid fight, the only stat that effected auto attack was haste. party communication, skill stacking and timer counting have nothing to do with auto attack, and all are prevalent in this game when you fight real fights.

This is where I think you're completely wrong. Balancing is adding something because it is altering skill modifiers and stat formulas. Making the stat formulas more potent, but shrinking the pool adds several layers to one class in terms of allotment. This is when you actually start to work out builds specific to the user's play style.

making the stat formulas more potent may or may not happen, but auto attack does not require or even suggest that they would have to do this. All you have to do with auto attack, is decide how much of your damage you expect auto attack to do as compared with regular attacks now, then divide the effect. If you decide people were able to get 200 dps on monster thier level with normal attacks before, and you want them to get 100 dps with auto attacks now, you just have to divide the damage formula by 2.

Im just saying there really is no need to drastically rework stat calculations effect for the sake of auto attack, they may do it, but its not really required, and isnt really linked to them shrinking the stat pool. They could just as easily increase the stat pool.

[BruceyBruceyBangBang]

making the stat formulas more potent may or may not happen, but auto attack does not require or even suggest that they would have to do this. All you have to do with auto attack, is decide how much of your damage you expect auto attack to do as compared with regular attacks now, then divide the effect. If you decide people were able to get 200 dps on monster thier level with normal attacks before, and you want them to get 100 dps with auto attacks now, you just have to divide the damage formula by 2.

Im just saying there really is no need to drastically rework stat calculations effect for the sake of auto attack, they may do it, but its not really required, and isnt really linked to them shrinking the stat pool. They could just as easily increase the stat pool.

What you think is a good idea for balancing and what the actual calculations turn out to be are two separate things that much is evident.

Adjusting the stat calculations is required and the fact that you cannot see how shrinking the stat pools correlates with auto-attack shows that you alone do not understand. What was said was the stat pools are too large and stretched thin. Your diminishing results start at 110 onward which makes your stat modifiers viable even at 80. Players can divide their stats up evenly and only be marginally less stat wise than another player in the enhancements they give.

This is a problem and was said to be addressed with the battle system. Shrinking the pool, or as they put it, "simplifying the formulas" would make the stats more potent, but will leave you with choices to fit your play style. This is aside from skill. FFXIV, as of right now, is pretty easy to float through and doesn't separate the men from the boys. If you call skill timing your attacks and moving around mobs to avoid cone AOE, well, alright.

I think skill is a combination of figuring out builds and your idea of play strategy and skills. So do not think I'm totally on a different page than you.

Edit: Just caught this, but it's safe to rule out them INCREASING the stat pool. That would actually complicate the formulas even more. Please have an understand in what you're discussing before discussing it. It's really not much to ask.

[Physic]

What you think is a good idea for balancing and what the actual calculations turn out to be are two separate things that much is evident.

Adjusting the stat calculations is required and the fact that you cannot see how shrinking the stat pools correlates with auto-attack shows that you alone do not understand. What was said was the stat pools are too large and stretched thin. Your diminishing results start at 110 onward which makes your stat modifiers viable even at 80. Players can divide their stats up evenly and only be marginally less stat wise than another player in the enhancements they give.

This is a problem and was said to be addressed with the battle system. Shrinking the pool, or as they put it, "simplifying the formulas" would make the stats more potent, but will leave you with choices to fit your play style. This is aside from skill. FFXIV, as of right now, is pretty easy to float through and doesn't separate the men from the boys. If you call skill timing your attacks and moving around mobs to avoid cone AOE, well, alright.

I think skill is a combination of figuring out builds and your idea of play strategy and skills. So do not think I'm totally on a different page than you.

I am saying that most players who want auto attack seem to prefer the statistical manipulation IE stats gear skill choices etc with a few interjected reaction skills, like stun. Im not putting a value on that,

Im saying the current system revolves more about reaction and skill, and choosing when to do what. Compare this to ffxi, if you had someones account, and macros set, it would be fairly easy to tell them how to play, for a DD/tank extremely easy. Most of the planning went into your gear set ups, macroing, choice of subjobs.

This game has a bit of both, but i definately think they designed it skewed to skill choice and player interaction, rather than gear, most gear only gives you a modest boost, and what skills/traits combinations you choose, as well as how well you can take advantage of your jobs strengths is the dominant factor. Like i said, it would not be easy for me to explain my take on how to take advantage of pugs abilities in this game,

whereas in FFXI it was more about explaining gear choices, haste versus str and attack and dbl attack etc, but actually explaining battle; /assist build tp use best weapon skill repeat. This game involves positioning, stamina choices, short time buffs, more selection of abilities etc.

timing attacks to avoid cone, timing attacks to make best use of your buffs, timing your buffs and skills to make best use of your stamina at the right times, or have stamina available when you need to do a string of attacks or skills. figuring out when its best to do BR, managing your cooldowns to maximize your powers. Im not claiming its street fighter, but its way more complex than FFXI for melee/tanks anyhow in the sense of the skill it takes to do it well.

Im not using skill as a universal word for being good, im using skill as a word to describe having to react and use techniques and various abilities to a greater effect.
Planning and intellegience is more in the realms of what skills to use, and how usefull they are, even with the same knowledge different players are better at execution. I think some people would prefer more planning and intellegience and less execution, annnnd some peops just want easy mode but thats a different story.

also keep in mind im not talking about the easymode leves and behests we have now, im talking about real difficult fights, versus more complex mobs, and possibly groups of monsters. Back when i first played, and people didnt know everything about everything you had to learn leves, adapt to the mobs skills, and deal with multiple mobs at the same time. When exploring tam tara for exp, fighting high level bones, zombies, efts, eyes, pigs etc, (like +12-18 levels higher than you and the claiming system didnt block you on skill gain for aoe) you actually saw big differences in results using all your skills well.


and after that wall of text, im also saying i think they are going to take it more into a simulation type game for battle, and less on a skill based battle system. By making stats and gear more dominant, thats one step in that direction, by taking out actively choosing when to do everything, and most likely reducing the dominance of stamina, thats another step in that direction. So essentially as to what to expect with the battle system, probably a slower paced (not the speed of attacks, but the amount of qualitative input from the player) but more simulation and more overall planning of your charachters/stats/gear roles. As well as more rigid roles in combat.

But i could be wrong, they could come up with something crazy, but its not what i expect form what they have said.

[kukurumei]

I am saying that most players who want auto attack seem to prefer the statistical manipulation IE stats gear skill choices etc with a few interjected reaction skills, like stun. Im not putting a value on that,

Im saying the current system revolves more about reaction and skill, and choosing when to do what. Compare this to ffxi, if you had someones account, and macros set, it would be fairly easy to tell them how to play, for a DD/tank extremely easy. Most of the planning went into your gear set ups, macroing, choice of subjobs.

This game has a bit of both, but i definately think they designed it skewed to skill choice and player interaction, rather than gear, most gear only gives you a modest boost, and what skills/traits combinations you choose, as well as how well you can take advantage of your jobs strengths is the dominant factor. Like i said, it would not be easy for me to explain my take on how to take advantage of pugs abilities in this game,

whereas in FFXI it was more about explaining gear choices, haste versus str and attack and dbl attack etc, but actually explaining battle; /assist build tp use best weapon skill repeat. This game involves positioning, stamina choices, short time buffs, more selection of abilities etc.

timing attacks to avoid cone, timing attacks to make best use of your buffs, timing your buffs and skills to make best use of your stamina at the right times, or have stamina available when you need to do a string of attacks or skills. figuring out when its best to do BR, managing your cooldowns to maximize your powers. Im not claiming its street fighter, but its way more complex than FFXI for melee/tanks anyhow in the sense of the skill it takes to do it well.

Im not using skill as a universal word for being good, im using skill as a word to describe having to react and use techniques and various abilities to a greater effect.
Planning and intellegience is more in the realms of what skills to use, and how usefull they are, even with the same knowledge different players are better at execution. I think some people would prefer more planning and intellegience and less execution, annnnd some peops just want easy mode but thats a different story.

also keep in mind im not talking about the easymode leves and behests we have now, im talking about real difficult fights, versus more complex mobs, and possibly groups of monsters. Back when i first played, and people didnt know everything about everything you had to learn leves, adapt to the mobs skills, and deal with multiple mobs at the same time. When exploring tam tara for exp, fighting high level bones, zombies, efts, eyes, pigs etc, (like +12-18 levels higher than you and the claiming system didnt block you on skill gain for aoe) you actually saw big differences in results using all your skills well.


and after that wall of text, im also saying i think they are going to take it more into a simulation type game for battle, and less on a skill based battle system. By making stats and gear more dominant, thats one step in that direction, by taking out actively choosing when to do everything, and most likely reducing the dominance of stamina, thats another step in that direction. So essentially as to what to expect with the battle system, probably a slower paced (not the speed of attacks, but the amount of qualitative input from the player) but more simulation and more overall planning of your charachters/stats/gear roles. As well as more rigid roles in combat.

But i could be wrong, they could come up with something crazy, but its not what i expect form what they have said.

That's exactly the reason why FF14 battle system isn't working.

You are envisioning a full manual deluxe plate of tactical maneuvering. But in reality, you're just too stuck on l33t possibility where no one cares or writes scripts for.

The tactical alternative to "why bother" is supreme. In all your 360 tacticle decision and inputs nets you 100more hp, and 10 seconds shorter kill time. My 11111121 is "good enough". I have to heal 10 seconds later, but it beats repeating the alternative for 3 hours.

This is why people don't understand MMOs especially PvE high fantasy MMOs like FF. L33t is crap because the game is designed to be non competitive, friendly, and repetitive.

This isn't a fighting game where achieve maximum "high level" playing and constant "raising the bar" type fights. It's a MMO of repetitive adventuring. Until people get that, they will never understand why FF14 is depopulating into a ghost town.

Everything you explained won't work. Because not enough people will have the incentive to do that(not to mention it's no different if you're repeating it over and over anyway), and developers have no incentive to write monster scenarios for that. (In fact they can't. This isn't an action game, AI are dumb, and monsters have to be aplenty and long lasting).

This is why we're moving to a Auto-attack system and probably a lot of things to revolve around that.

We're not driving manual cars anymore because no one wants to do that for 8hrs a day-every day. Of course pre-determined Public transportation isn't efficient either so, that's why we have AT cars on the road.

[Physic]

That's exactly the reason why FF14 battle system isn't working.

You are envisioning a full manual deluxe plate of tactical maneuvering. But in reality, you're just too stuck on l33t possibility where no one cares or writes scripts for.

The tactical alternative to "why bother" is supreme. In all your 360 tacticle decision and inputs nets you 100more hp, and 10 seconds shorter kill time. My 11111121 is "good enough". I have to heal 10 seconds later, but it beats repeating the alternative for 3 hours.

This is why people don't understand MMOs especially PvE high fantasy MMOs like FF. L33t is crap because the game is designed to be non competitive, friendly, and repetitive.

This isn't a fighting game where achieve maximum "high level" playing and constant "raising the bar" type fights. It's a MMO of repetitive adventuring. Until people get that, they will never understand why FF14 is depopulating into a ghost town.

Everything you explained won't work. Because not enough people will have the incentive to do that(not to mention it's no different if you're repeating it over and over anyway), and developers have no incentive to write monster scenarios for that. (In fact they can't. This isn't an action game, AI are dumb, and monsters have to be aplenty and long lasting).

This is why we're moving to a Auto-attack system and probably a lot of things to revolve around that.

We're not driving manual cars anymore because no one wants to do that for 8hrs a day-every day. Of course pre-determined Public transportation isn't efficient either so, that's why we have AT cars on the road.

so essentially what your saying is leveling in an mmo should be designed to be easy and not having much interaction, because a lot of interaction is tedious.

I can see your op, it is not unvalid, but i disagree.

The things i talked about in my post already occured in the game, and you were rewarded for it. This is what the game was evolving into before the sp nerf. You fought harder fights in more dangerous areas, because higher level monsters gave you better exp, you tried to avoid the aoe attacks because when a monster is high level, they do a lot of damage, and can kill you. You manage your stamina and choose between a provoke or a strike because if you choose wrong you may lose agro, and the monster may die.
You use aoe tanking abilities as a marauder because if you dont get hate, the healer will die, and you will probably be next. You offtank the other puk in the group because the marauder can keep enough hate, and tring dodge, or take two flip kicks may kill you, or the healer. All this is my adventures when the game started, its not imaginings of what could be, its really what we did, and we got exp for it.

A good system, well created has depth, you can get by at a low level, or you can take it deeper, and be a little better. while people who just want to get to work, and drive because its the easiest way want automatics, most people who actually enjoy driving, and do it in there free time, or as a hobby prefer manual, because they have more control, and its a more entertaining experience. They can get slightly better performance by involving themselves more.

So basically it comes down to a clash of what is battle in an MMO, is it a means to an ends, or a joy in and of itself. I can see why there may be opposing schools of thought on this. In honesty what they should probably have done, is created two battle systems, one which is simple, involving only minute complexity or involvement, for the people to whom battle is just a means to the end of progression and gear, and another system for those who want to get in depth and have more control over the battle, who actually want entertaining battles. Because i dont really think that more people want it one way or the other, i think its split fairly evenly.

[Mack]

I am saying that most players who want auto attack seem to prefer the statistical manipulation IE stats gear skill choices etc with a few interjected reaction skills, like stun. Im not putting a value on that,

Yes, I agree with this because I'm that type of player. I enjoy my action games and action RPG games but I like my MMOs to be more strategy driven, think then act rather than act and think later which is what the game is right now.

[Physic]

Yes, I agree with this because I'm that type of player. I enjoy my action games and action RPG games but I like my MMOs to be more strategy driven, think then act rather than act and think later which is what the game is right now.

i prefer a mixture of both, but id definately want the battles to be entertaining if im going to have to it a lot, and i prefer to have active manipulation rather than sitting and waiting, like in ffxi, i prefered playing monk/thf to monk/war because although monk war was quite powerful, it basically involved just putting on buffs and letting the computer play, whereas on monk/thf i had to move more often, and be aware of my position, and the hate of various parties, it was basically more active, even if only by a little bit.

Its a style choice, i think they need to find a way to appeal to both people.

[Vesperia]

All of that sounds so boring to me.