Paladin - A little too simple?

[TouchandFeel]

We have abilities that are just junk for the most part (Shield Swipe, almost every cross-class skill)

I find this to be very true. Most of the abilities that we can use cross-class seem like they might be neat, but for the most part don't really bring much to the table, especially once you get towards end-game content.
The CNJ abilities are okay at best but only when soloing and cure is pretty much useless.
The MRD abilities are a little better. I use Bloodbath+Flight/Fight+Convalescence together in boss fights to slow my health degrading if the healer needs some help.

[Giantbane]

Warrior does more damage, that's why they hold single target threat better than a Paladin does. The reason healers can creep on them in high healing fights (anything past Titan) is because they do that other combo. If all a Warrior ever did was Butcher's Block, no healer would ever touch them outside of spamming Medica II for shits.

Shield Oath is -20% dmg. Defiance is -25% dmg. So even though WAR's threat combo does a little more dmg than PLD, the stance penalty should cause the WAR to do less dmg over all if they purely spam their threat combo.

In order to outdps a PLD, a WAR must do the maim combo every 1-2 rotations (1 for max up time on storm's eye debuff, every 2 for better threat generation). This makes it very likely WAR will generate less single target threat in the end.

Sword Oath is outright terrible to use as a MT for anything endgame-related as well. But while we can poke and prod at the individual issues that Paladin has, it doesn't negate the fact that Paladin as a whole is a job that works.

As for the current topic at hand, I feel if anyone wants to add more complexity to Paladin, it should start with changing Sword Oath to make it more competitive with Shield Oath.

Sword Oath = DPS, Shield Oath = tanking. Say off tanking Garuda HM (if I understand the fight correctly), you'd use Sword Oath to DPS, then swap to Shield Oath to tank adds, then back to sword oath to DPS the boss.

It's actually preferable to the WAR who needs to drop Defiance to DPS. When you reapply Defiance, you don't get that extra HP, so you need to be healed immediately. And you've lost all wrath stacks switching back and forth.

It's perfect the way it is. If anything, I'd say maybe swap the order you get the skills (so move sword oath to 40, shield oath to 30) as shield oath is the more important of the 2 abilities for the job's main role, so you'd want to get it sooner.

[Churchill]

I wasn't really having an uninformed discussion so much as I was making an informed statement.

[Kitru]

I wasn't really having an uninformed discussion so much as I was making an informed statement.

And what was it informed by? You said that WAR does more damage and generates more ST threat, which has been shown numerous times to be pretty damned untrue, assuming the PLD actually uses the tools available to them. Fight or Flight, Circle of Scorn, and Spirits Within are all *amazing* force and threat multipliers. On top of that PLD gets to spam their high enmity combo ad infinitum.

I've run both a PLD and a WAR and run *against* PLD on my WAR: PLD manages better ST threat because they get to use their high enmity combo on a constant basis. If you think it's an informed statement to say that WAR has better ST threat, you're not informed: you're woefully uninformed. The damage dealt between the two is effectively identical with PLD being slightly worse when tanking without a WAR around and slightly better when tanking with a WAR.

[Giantbane]

The MRD abilities are a little better. I use Bloodbath+Flight/Fight+Convalescence together in boss fights to slow my health degrading if the healer needs some help.

Convalescence doesn't seem to improve Blood bath "heals". Blood bath is a health absorption instead of a direct heal, it restores health based on damage done. Convalescence and other +heal% abilites don't appear to improve that type of health restoration at all.

[Churchill]

And what was it informed by? You said that WAR does more damage and generates more ST threat, which has been shown numerous times to be pretty damned untrue, assuming the PLD actually uses the tools available to them. Fight or Flight, Circle of Scorn, and Spirits Within are all *amazing* force and threat multipliers. On top of that PLD gets to spam their high enmity combo ad infinitum.

I've run both a PLD and a WAR and run *against* PLD on my WAR: PLD manages better ST threat because they get to use their high enmity combo on a constant basis. If you think it's an informed statement to say that WAR has better ST threat, you're not informed: you're woefully uninformed. The damage dealt between the two is effectively identical with PLD being slightly worse when tanking without a WAR around and slightly better when tanking with a WAR.

There's a simple explanation for that. The Warrior you play against is bad and so is the Warrior you play.

There, settled.

[Giantbane]

There's a simple explanation for that. The Warrior you play against is bad and so is the Warrior you play.

There, settled.

OOOOHHHH, I thought you were just misinformed and didn't know what you're talking about. In reality you're just trolling. I'm sorry, my mistake.

[TouchandFeel]

Convalescence doesn't seem to improve Blood bath "heals". Blood bath is a health absorption instead of a direct heal, it restores health based on damage done. Convalescence and other +heal% abilites don't appear to improve that type of health restoration at all.

Yeah, I noticed that it doesn't seem to work with Bloodbath.
I use it when, as I stated, the healer needs some help, so Convalescence helps me get more healing from what the healer can do and Bloodbath is just a little extra.
The description for Convalescence is pretty misleading IMO, since it makes it sound like it would work with Bloodbath.

[Churchill]

OOOOHHHH, I thought you were just misinformed and didn't know what you're talking about. In reality you're just trolling. I'm sorry, my mistake.

Oh, I don't think anyone would call me misinformed.

[Kitru]

There's a simple explanation for that. The Warrior you play against is bad and so is the Warrior you play.

There, settled.

So your argument is that your own worldview doesn't match the math that has been provided by 2 separate independent sources as well as supported by my own experiences because I'm incompetent as are everyone I've ever played with.

Occam's Razor would suggest that it's the PLDs you run against that are incompetent, likely because they barely touch Fight or Flight, Circle of Scorn, and Spirits Within. I was able to yank threat off of pretty much any WAR I ran with on my PLD as I was leveling (even those 5 levels my superior) just by spamming Halone and using my CDs. PLD manages *way* better enmity generation. Try actually looking at what you're referring to rather than just deciding via personal fiat that WAR does more damage and generates more enmity. If you actually look at the evidence, I think you'll be surprised that you'll have to eat your words.