Paladin - A little too simple?

[Lucavern]

As others have mentioned, PLD doesn't get that big of a hate margin as some people like to think. My static started working on Titan last night, and our WHM kept pulling hate off me at least once a fight. Wasn't missing Halone combo GCDs, popped CDs appropriately, etc. but the WHM still was pulling that much threat. Add a non-Halone combo requirement into the mix and I wouldn't even bother trying to tank this fight.

[Kitru]

The assertion in the OP was the it would be a necessary combo. Paladin doesn't have that kind of hate margin. Paladin has almost no hate margin just using Rage of Halone.

So they'd be just like a WAR? PLD and WAR tanks do effectively the same damage. WAR has to use its high enmity combo only 66% of the time compared to the 100% of the time that PAL gets. The PAL enmity combo is also a 10x multiplier rather than an 8x multiplier.

Saying that PLD has issues with enmity generation simply demonstrates that you're ignorant of WAR.

[Jahaudant]

It's common for a WHM to pull hate in Titan around his first or second jump - this is not your fault, and it's what Shroud of Saints is for.

Your WHM will have been trying to conserve Shroud for MP purposes, but once forced to use it for hate purposes it will be popped immediately once off cooldown for the remainder of the fight. (By time its back up it is required to keep MP up regardless).

I have extremely well geared WHM and PLD and I have played both extensively in many, many Titan runs. Trust me, any WHM worth his salt wont be close to your threat after the heart is dead.

[Jahaudant]

So they'd be just like a WAR? PLD and WAR tanks do effectively the same damage. WAR has to use its high enmity combo only 66% of the time compared to the 100% of the time that PAL gets. The PAL enmity combo is also a 10x multiplier rather than an 8x multiplier.

Saying that PLD has issues with enmity generation simply demonstrates that you're ignorant of WAR.

Can you take your WAR BS to an appropriate thread? This has absolutely nothing to do with WAR. Thanks.

[Kitru]

Can you take your WAR BS to an appropriate thread? This has absolutely nothing to do with WAR. Thanks.

Except that the argument is that PLD wouldn't be able to hold threat if they were forced to not do Halone every single time. The supposition that PLD is somehow struggling to maintain threat when they end up maintaining threat better than the other tank thanks to spamming their high enmity combo ad infinitum is a legitimate counterargument to it.

If PLD were forced to use a non-high enmity combo for 1 out of every 3 combo strings, they would be no worse off than a WAR.

Now, if you want to argue that argue that all tanks need to have their enmity increased (or that the current PLD threat state is the proper level), then you could argue that any rework of the PLD rotation should be accompanied by a commensurate increase in the enmity modifier of Halone (which would also necessitate doing the same for Butcher's Block, but, as previously stated, that's not part of this discussion) to account for the decrease predicated by being "forced" to use a non-enmity combo.

[Churchill]

So they'd be just like a WAR? PLD and WAR tanks do effectively the same damage. WAR has to use its high enmity combo only 66% of the time compared to the 100% of the time that PAL gets. The PAL enmity combo is also a 10x multiplier rather than an 8x multiplier.

Saying that PLD has issues with enmity generation simply demonstrates that you're ignorant of WAR.

Warrior does more damage, that's why they hold single target threat better than a Paladin does. The reason healers can creep on them in high healing fights (anything past Titan) is because they do that other combo. If all a Warrior ever did was Butcher's Block, no healer would ever touch them outside of spamming Medica II for shits. Paladin does not have that buffer because they don't do as much damage and that's exactly why a Warrior can catch up to a Paladin with ease even if they spend two minutes dealing with adds.

I see, you were replying to OP.

Indeed forcing a PLD to use another combo every 2-3 Halones would seriously harm enmity gain in the early stages of a fight that involves immediate heavy healing - Titan for example. However, after a minute or two in any type of encounters your threat margin is actually really quite large.

You'll come across stuff later where that 2 minutes is all you have, and things even later than that where there is little relief at all.

[Zarkhov]

Kitru is convinced that paladins do as much damage as warriors..... I could see having a different combo being very useful. I just recently hit level 50, so I haven't had the chance to do some of the battles mentioned here. However I have tanked in just about every MMO out there. While threat may be an issue in some situations it definitely should not be in most if WHM is using the agro reduction ability. I could see numerous potential applications of a mitigation combo going forward without even knowing the fights.

The only problem I see here is that if we were to receive another type of mitigation it may tip the warrior/paladin balance. Several highly skilled warriors aren't really haven't problems with balance vs paladin, though this combo proposal could change things.

[Zarkhov]

Continued-
With that being said, I find using the current combo somewhat challenging for aoe agro since I have to know how much threat is on every mob, so its pretty fun. I try to stay away from using Flash unless I have to agro a ton of mobs 4+ because well Flash is kind of crappy while barely holding enough agro over aoe spam and it slows down any damage I want to add to the group. The current setup for Paladins reminds me of Tanking in Aion or Warriors in wow during Vanilla/BC when you had to manage agro on each mob individually since at that time there was no easy mode aoe(thunderclap/devastate) spam.

[Zarkhov]

Continued again >_> post restrictions:
On single target tanking situations though it is a bit boring. I find myself hoping to be required to dodge a frontal attack or aoe for some excitement...lol....I hope they do make single target tanking more difficult and require more skill aside from timing mitigation. They could even just add a plain damage attack after Riot Blade that does not have increased threat but offers more damage. To take that even further, it could require you to stance dance into sword oath to use.

[Tanaya]

^You can bypass the character limit by just editing your post. And I do find Add tanking more fun than main tanking as PLD.

start solo tanking end game bosses if you want more to challenge you

I have. Lack of challenge isn't exactly the issue I'm having though. It's the lack of options.

Which is something that is rather tricky to implement on a job that is, for all intents and purposes, in a good place in terms of balance. We have abilities that are just junk for the most part (Shield Swipe, almost every cross-class skill), and the rest just serves to mitigate damage. Sword Oath is outright terrible to use as a MT for anything endgame-related as well. But while we can poke and prod at the individual issues that Paladin has, it doesn't negate the fact that Paladin as a whole is a job that works.

As for the current topic at hand, I feel if anyone wants to add more complexity to Paladin, it should start with changing Sword Oath to make it more competitive with Shield Oath.