A Warrior Tanking Compendium?

[HiirNoivl]

Second Wind is relative to attack power so if you have Berserk up it'll increase dramatically and if you use Inner Release you can Crit it for like 600Hp+ (getting this with Ifrit Axe)

Think it's a 30 second cool down so if you keep using it you get quite a bit of HP over a long boss fight.

o.o/ I think my highest second wind was a Crit for 1065.

Inner Beasts should always be buffed with something and should be used liberally. Not only is it your strongest self heal but it is also the strongest attack on your bar and contributes significantly to your DPS.

[Pixelshader]

o.o/ I think my highest second wind was a Crit for 1065.

Inner Beasts should always be buffed with something and should be used liberally. Not only is it your strongest self heal but it is also the strongest attack on your bar and contributes significantly to your DPS.

I was hoping you would add something to this thread. Please take a look at what I said about rotation, that will probably start an open discussion on rotations. Abilities I'm getting a greater feel for. I know you said you like to IB->infuriate->IB on titan. I prefer to not do the second IB to keep my 15% healing and usually a somewhat decent healer will be able to get you back up.

[HiirNoivl]

I was hoping you would add something to this thread. Please take a look at what I said about rotation, that will probably start an open discussion on rotations. Abilities I'm getting a greater feel for. I know you said you like to IB->infuriate->IB on titan. I prefer to not do the second IB to keep my 15% healing and usually a somewhat decent healer will be able to get you back up.

Actually, I don't do that. o.o Where'd you read that?

I do exactly what you do.

Basically, if I don't have a pressing need for using Inner Beast OR if I have don't have my DPS buffs up, I'll hold off on it, or move to a different cooldown. 15% healing is always better than an unbuffed Inner Beast.

But still I'm curious as to other WARs do it.

[Pixelshader]

Actually, I don't do that. o.o Where'd you read that?

I do exactly what you do.

Basically, if I don't have a pressing need for using Inner Beast OR if I have don't have my DPS buffs up, I'll hold off on it, or move to a different cooldown. 15% healing is always better than an unbuffed Inner Beast.

But still I'm curious as to other WARs do it.

I was reading through you Titan HM thread. There was a snippet where you stated that after the super big hit, you fill your HP by doing the IB->infuriate->IB trick. It's not bad but again I'm a paladin tank and plan to spend quite a bit of time implementing anything theory I find this week then reporting the results in a warrior compendium. Main gotcha's I'm working around are rotations. Currently they are as followed:

Single-Target:
Opener: Infuriate -> Unchained -> Tomahawk while running towards the mob -> Butcher's Block -> Butcher's Block Combo -> Butcher's Block Combo
Due to the lack of abilities off the GCD and initial aggro being quite possibly the most trying part of warrior tanking, I believe that a Butcher's Block before a Butcher's Block combo allows enough enmity to grab initial aggro, and then allow your sustained enmity to ramp up.

Upkeep: The following is a priority system not a step by step rotation. If you see something earlier in the list not on cool down, use it.

1. Unchained -> Infuriate (Use to stabilize initial enmity, then only use during burn phases)
2. Storm's Eye Combo Use as needed to keep Maim on yourself and Storm's Eye on your target. This raises your overall enmity throughout the fight.
3. Mercy Stroke (On cooldown, this does not break your Butcher's Block Combo so use it ASAP)
4. Butcher's Block Combo

Thought process: The opener allows for a very high threat initial threat to allow the warrior to start buffing and debuffing to unlock its maximum potential. During the upkeep phase there is a bit of overhead for the player. The player must make sure the Maim buff is up as well as the debuffs Flash and Storm's Eye are on the target. Save your Infuriate to replenish your wrath stacks should you have to use Inner Beast or Unchained. Beyond that, the highest threat to GCD sequence will be your Butcher's Block combo. Should all buffs and debuffs be up, Butcher's Block Combo.


Multi-Target:
Opener: Infuriate -> Unchained -> Mark (Macro) -> Flash until about half Mana -> Overpower until about half TP
This will allow you to create a large amount of initial AOE enmity while still providing enough resources to react to a new add appearing, should that happen.

Upkeep: The following is a priority system not a step by step rotation. If you see something earlier in the list not on cool down, use it.

1. Storm's Eye Combo Use as needed to keep Maim on yourself and Storm's Eye on your target. This raises your overall enmity throughout the fight.
2. Vengeance Not quite sure if the reflected damage creates enmity, but it does produce AOE damage as well as 1 stack of Wrath.
3. Mercy Stroke (On cooldown, this does not break your Butcher's Block Combo so use it ASAP)
4. Flash (If you tick above 50% mana)
5. Butcher's Block Combo

Thought process: The opener allows for a very high AOE enmity initially, but the quickly begins to falter. You must maintain it during the upkeep phase. During the upkeep phase you want generate as much enmity as possible on multiple targets, everything you do aside from flash burns though your TP, so Auto-Attack and Butcher's Block combos on the marked mob allows for DPS to focus, while the the infrequent flashes and storm's paths should allow you achieve your goal of maintaining AOE enmity. Understand this requires coordination. If a DPS chooses to attack the non-marked, they could very well pull aggro off you. The reason I only spam Flash to half Mana and Overpower to half TP is in case something happens, such as a second wave or a pat that needs snap aggro. With this rotation you should not run out of Mana or TP, and with a bard cool down or general Mana regeneration you may be able to throw in an extra Flash.


Above is the rough draft. I really need some consults to verify or provide feed back to see if this is truly the best way to maintain enmity.

[Kal-El]

Second wind is a 2 min CD so fucking useless stop making shit up KAl-El

and 600 hp every 2 min on a 7k+ hp tank yea right useless!

O_o

Got the timer mixed up.

Chill out mate.

[HiirNoivl]

I said nothing about just "taking a big hit". It was specifically referring to people rage-facing and going into hysterics about Coil, something completely off topic from Titan.

This is what I said about Titan.

At this point after Earthen Fury, Mountain Buster is just seconds away, you'll get hit by a Rock Buster first, which is easily healed by a mage and then Mountain buster for around 4500. Use your buffed Inner Beast which should allow to you absorb over 2k HP. Use Infuriate and you're back at Wrath V. One heal and a regen should be all you need to recover.

I have enough trouble without people Mis-quoting me Pixelshader. What I was referring to is if I had to take a 8k hit. Twice the HP lost of Mountain Buster. If you're receiving twice the damage, you need to do twice the self heal.

Single-Target:
Opener: Infuriate -> Unchained -> Tomahawk while running towards the mob -> Butcher's Block -> Butcher's Block Combo -> Butcher's Block Combo
Due to the lack of abilities off the GCD and initial aggro being quite possibly the most trying part of warrior tanking, I believe that a Butcher's Block before a Butcher's Block combo allows enough enmity to grab initial aggro, and then allow your sustained enmity to ramp up.

My main beef wtih this is Infuriate-Unchained isn't needed for Initial pull Enmity. Two Butcher's Block combos will put you at Wrath IV, so I feel that using Infuriate at pull is not effective If you really need it, you could always use Unchained after that (When you're putting your attack buffs down) and then use Infuriate for more of a pinch. I don't really have any issues with initial aggro unless some crack decides to Regen me, or pop a Medica II right before I pull, (which has happened.)

Upkeep: The following is a priority system not a step by step rotation. If you see something earlier in the list not on cool down, use it.

1. Unchained -> Infuriate (On cooldown, this does not break your Butcher's Block Combo so use it ASAP)
2. Storm's Eye Combo Use as needed to keep Maim on yourself and Storm's Eye on your target. This raises your overall enmity throughout the fight.
3. Mercy Stroke (On cooldown, this does not break your Butcher's Block Combo so use it ASAP)
4. Flash (If not applied)
5. Butcher's Block Combo

Thought process: The opener allows for a very high threat initial threat to allow the warrior to start buffing and debuffing to unlock its maximum potential. During the upkeep phase there is a bit of overhead for the player. The player must make sure the Maim buff is up as well as the debuffs Flash and Storm's Eye are on the target. Also when Unchained is off cool down it is highly recommended to spend your Wrath stacks on this cool down, then replenish your stacks immediately with Infuriate. Beyond that, the highest threat to GCD sequence will be your Butcher's Block combo. Should all buffs and debuffs be up, Butcher's Block Combo.

Mercy Stroke can only be used when the mob is under 20% HP but it does hit pretty hard so if you want that extra push around the end, it's great, but I don't know about it being used for enmity that late in the fight. But Defiance Buff to hate is really all that's needed to maintain your lead on the enmity bar. WAR unfortunately does not get any Debuffs from Flash. The Flash "Blind" debuff is PLD Onry, so if you want to put up a Blind on the mobs you need to use potions.

Multi-Target:
Opener: Infuriate -> Unchained -> Mark (Macro) -> Flash until about half Mana -> Overpower until about half TP
This will allow you to create a large amount of initial AOE enmity while still providing enough resources to react to a new add appearing, should that happen.

Upkeep: The following is a priority system not a step by step rotation. If you see something earlier in the list not on cool down, use it.

1. Storm's Path -> Infuriate (On cooldown, this does not break your Butcher's Block Combo so use it ASAP)
2. Storm's Path (On cooldown, this does not break your Butcher's Block Combo so use it ASAP)
3. Storm's Eye Combo Use as needed to keep Maim on yourself and Storm's Eye on your target. This raises your overall enmity throughout the fight.
4. Mercy Stroke (On cooldown, this does not break your Butcher's Block Combo so use it ASAP)
5. Flash (If you tick above 50% mana)
6. Butcher's Block Combo

Thought process: The opener allows for a very high AOE enmity initially, but the quickly begins to falter. You must maintain it during the upkeep phase. During the upkeep phase you want generate as much enmity as possible on multiple targets, everything you do aside from flash burns though your TP, so Auto-Attack and Butcher's Block combos on the marked mob allows for DPS to focus, while the the infrequent flashes and storm's paths should allow you achieve your goal of maintaining AOE enmity. Understand this requires coordination. If a DPS chooses to attack the non-marked, they could very well pull aggro off you. The reason I only spam Flash to half Mana and Overpower to half TP is in case something happens, such as a second wave or a pat that needs snap aggro. With this rotation you should not run out of Mana or TP, and with a bard cool down or general Mana regeneration you may be able to throw in an extra Flash.

Despite vociferous claims that WAR is an AoE tank, AoE tanking is WARs greatest Weakness. It's nearly impossible to sleep mobs with a WAR tank and maintain enmity on them without waking them up and as soon as the sleep timer ends, it wakes up it will head for the WHM who has accrued hate on the through healing. The mage that is sleeping is essentially the tank! I hate tanking dungeon trash because it usually involves me going:

Tomahawk -> Flash -> Overpower -> Heavy Swing -> Skull Sunder -> Tab to next target -> Butcher's Block -> Flash -> Tab to next target - etc. etc. Trying to keep hate on all of them. And of course, like you mentioned... TP issues occur with multi mob pulls. So you do have to pace yourself if you don't have a BRD.

It's exhausting! That said....

Multi mob pulls are just trash though usually in dungeons. So Unchained will not be up for every pull. It's on a 3 minute timer, You shouldn't be spending 3 minutes on each mob pull. Unchained is clearly for longer, more DPS intensive fights. Buffs should go up before unchained, and every sacred second of Unchained should be dealing damage. It's not supposed to be a hate grabbing unless you're off tank and the MT dies or... unless you're bored want to troll the MT PLD. *innocent look*

[Pixelshader]

I said nothing about just "taking a big hit". It was specifically referring to people rage-facing and going into hysterics about Coil, something completely off topic from Titan.

This is what I said about Titan.



I have enough trouble without people Mis-quoting me Pixelshader. What I was referring to is if I had to take a 8k hit. Twice the HP lost of Mountain Buster. If you're receiving twice the damage, you need to do twice the self heal.

I never said titan was the one doing a lot of damage, I actually didn't know which boss you were talking about. I did however state that I found the snippet in your Titan HM thread. I am also seeking your help to consult on my findings. I am new to warrior and trying figure out general rules and best practices so that the warrior community as a whole can progress.

I believe the snippet was:

To counteract this, a WAR must be prepared to recover for at least half of that immediately, which could necessitate the use of Berserk + Inner Beast + Infuriate + Inner Beast. At my total lows for Berserk + Inner Beast that would immediately recover 4000 damage in a few seconds, and my highs 5000 not including heals. I feel that is cutting it a little too close, but I'm working on that.

[Pixelshader]

My main beef wtih this is Infuriate-Unchained isn't needed for Initial pull Enmity. Two Butcher's Block combos will put you at Wrath IV, so I feel that using Infuriate at pull is not effective If you really need it, you could always use Unchained after that (When you're putting your attack buffs down) and then use Infuriate for more of a pinch. I don't really have any issues with initial aggro unless some crack decides to Regen me, or pop a Medica II right before I pull, (which has happened.)

Unfortunately I have only run into the issue of initial aggro. My biggest annoyance is there is not an instant threat ability off the GCD to pull with whereas paladin has 2. I was going down the path of being agnostic about which ability burns my stacks, Inner Beast or Unchained. Your methodology avoids the situation where you took a big hit, burn IB, and infuriate is down. I can wrap my head around that and will definitely adjust my data to treat infuriate as a defensive cooldown rather than an offensive cooldown. Unless we can agree that rarely do you die within the first 60 seconds of the fight and we can allow the first infuriate be used to stabilize boss threat.

Mercy Stroke can only be used when the mob is under 20% HP but it does hit pretty hard so if you want that extra push around the end, it's great, but I don't know about it being used for enmity that late in the fight. But Defiance Buff to hate is really all that's needed to maintain your lead on the enmity bar. WAR unfortunately does not get any Debuffs from Flash. The Flash "Blind" debuff is PLD Onry, so if you want to put up a Blind on the mobs you need to use potions.

Mercy stroke is off the cooldown. Tiny bit of threat so I don't see why you wouldn't use it every time its up. The heal portion of it is nothing more than a distraction in my opinion and should be forgotten and just used every time its up regardless of it being a killing blow. As for the blind stuff thats transposed from my paladin and I will remove that. My mistake.

Despite vociferous claims that WAR is an AoE tank, AoE tanking is WARs greatest Weakness. It's nearly impossible to sleep mobs with a WAR tank and maintain enmity on them without waking them up and as soon as the sleep timer ends, it wakes up it will head for the WHM who has accrued hate on the through healing. The mage that is sleeping is essentially the tank! I hate tanking dungeon trash because it usually involves me going:

Tomahawk -> Flash -> Overpower -> Heavy Swing -> Skull Sunder -> Tab to next target -> Butcher's Block -> Flash -> Tab to next target - etc. etc. Trying to keep hate on all of them. And of course, like you mentioned... TP issues occur with multi mob pulls. So you do have to pace yourself if you don't have a BRD.

It's exhausting! That said....

Multi mob pulls are just trash though usually in dungeons. So Unchained will not be up for every pull. It's on a 3 minute timer, You shouldn't be spending 3 minutes on each mob pull. Unchained is clearly for longer, more DPS intensive fights. Buffs should go up before unchained, and every sacred second of Unchained should be dealing damage. It's not supposed to be a hate grabbing unless you're off tank and the MT dies or... unless you're bored want to troll the MT PLD. *innocent look*

I was curious in dungeons if it was better to tab block combos or pool and overpower. I just ran with a bad healer and was too scared to burn my wraths on steel cyclone. So maybe that should be out of the equation. As for cool downs being up every pull, especially in a dungeon scenario that was never the assumption. The rotation is written as though you are in an ideal situation where everything is up. If it isn't then perhaps on the next pull.

[HiirNoivl]

Yeah I feel like I get misunderstood a lot.

Regarding Coil: I don't feel like anyone, WAR or PLD should be soaking up 8k raw damage on any bossfight whatsoever, there are so many cooldowns available to party members that screeching at the tank to take the raw damage in the face and then telling them their gimp if they can't, is basically abandoning party play so you can solo. I believe that Coil is a fight of max coordination and the best teams will be the ones World-Firsting Coil.

But yeah, if the party is off their game, a WAR may need to pull out all the stops to say up burning through the cooldowns until they can get it together. If I'm going to take that 8k to the face, I need to Double IB and hope that my SCH has Lustrate ready to save my rear.

I'm waiting with Baited breath to find a decent use for Steel Cyclone outside soloing. The general rule for all the classes (except SMN's Bane) is that if you want to AoE damage be prepared to take a big hit to the TP and MP and prepare for that damage to be about 1/3rd of Single Target damage or less, which just sucks for a Tank trying to hold hate.

[ogopogo]

*snip

I really don't think unchained should be used like that as it has a 3 min cooldown and can't really be used on every or even every other pack. Typically I only use unchained when I'm tanking a large group (more than 4~5) and am spamming Overpowered with Berserk and Bloodbath on or during a burn phase on a boss fight. (Titan's Heart, Amdapor first boss's summoner at 50% hp, etc) Also, I've yet to run into a dps that require me to spam butcher's block outside of a combo just to build initial hate. (I typically run with a Dragoon with Relic+1 and AF2 chest piece with the rest in DL) Remember you only need as much hate to be higher than everyone else, there's no need to build that much aggro. Overall, I find it more important to focus on doing max damage when fight trash mobs and focus on keeping the 15% healing stack up when fighting a particularly hard hitting boss. At least that's my experience from having tanked up to Turn 2 in Coil.