Thread: Compiled SAM threads against 6.1 changes / Kaiten removal

Kaiten removal seemed pointless, I actually don't really mind the changes but can see why people are upset with removing kaiten it was a sort of gauge option gave samurai a bit more depth (similar to how overpower was just made into a boring OGCD), the "crit changes" I don't really matters much it doesn't really change how the job plays. I think a change that I disliked a lot was trick attack change, I really dislike Jobs just "clicking the 120 raid buff button" it's made raid buffs really boring and I think they should either be removed or reworked outside solo raid buffs or constant raid buffs such as, ast cards, DNC partner or bard songs. The core issue is this constant thing of like more then half of the DPS having this 120 buff, It's not even fun or unique to the Job to have that raid buff.

PLD's changes I think are generally needed in how current job design works, I'm not very happy about the rework coming soon, but we will wait and see, I think they've done some good changes recently and some changes that don't really make sense, I'm glad they're actually giving PLD another defensive and looking at utility, but at the same time I don't want PLD to feel like other tanks, which is most likely. I'll likely still main the Job or move to gunbreaker, I generally play PLD for multiple reasons though, Identity being one big factor, Liking tanks in general, liking magic but also melee ect.

I'm worried but at the same time I'm hopeful, they seem to be looking at its Issues even with how they don't block Dot's with Holy shelltron.

Originally Posted by RyuuZero

Ahahaha xD ya made me a lil bit mad with the "It makes sense why they might see Kaiten as problematic, and removing it may allow them to breath stronger gameplay elements into SAM in the future."-Line, since Kaiten emulates to breathe into your attacks, which is why Kaitenless Samurai are best describted as Breathless Samurai, but it's all good^^

I'm thinking about a Meme to translate the wish of Kaiten returning, thankfully Samurai after 6.1 still can do cool stuff, my Example would be my Big Kahuna Combo: Ogi Namikiri followed by Senei or Guren (optional Shoha or Shoha II in addition) and finished with Kaeshi Namikiri, that is a tasty combo and it makes me happy. Now I kinda wanna use the same source for my Meme, so I gonna ask:
What does the Samurai Rotation look like?
What are you using Kenki for?
Do you spam Shinten like a bitch?

I don’t really understand your point. Thematically, sure, the name Kaiten may have some deep connection to the concept of a samurai, but that’s not what I was referencing.

I’m saying that having a button that can massively boost the potency of any GCD action you’ll ever create does push the design of the job in a corner as you have to consider how that influences the jobs rotation from multiple angles every time you add a weapon skill to it. There may be actions the design team wants to add to SAM but can’t because it messes up their rotation considering how it will increase the demand for Kaiten and this increase the amount of Kenki you spend every minute.

But again, even if that’s true, there was no point in sterilizing Kaiten now when those design ideas are not yet being implemented.

Originally Posted by ty_taurus

But again, even if that’s true, there was no point in sterilizing Kaiten now when those design ideas are not yet being implemented.

the design of SAM as a job revolves entirely around flexible skill usage. you can use your combos in any order (as long as you don't overcap stickers) and you can even use iaijutsu mid-combo instead of having to spend stickers as soon as you're finished building them. Kaiten was an ability that went against that design philosophy because it was always used before iaijutsu and never used before other actions (except the new namikiri cooldown, i suppose), which was exceptionally rigid. (always use here, and only use here)

this flexibility of skill usage is even present on SAM's gage, since it's one of the only two jobs whose gage can hold up to 4 uses of their regular spender (the other one being DNC).

removing kaiten was a way to double down on the flexible gameplay of SAM, and i personally find the job much more fun after the change.
also makes it less punishing for people with high ping, which is always a positive in my books. (not that devs care about that, given the state of MCH)

Originally Posted by Melethron123

the design of SAM as a job revolves entirely around flexible skill usage. you can use your combos in any order (as long as you don't overcap stickers) and you can even use iaijutsu mid-combo instead of having to spend stickers as soon as you're finished building them. Kaiten was an ability that went against that design philosophy because it was always used before iaijutsu and never used before other actions (except the new namikiri cooldown, i suppose), which was exceptionally rigid. (always use here, and only use here)

this flexibility of skill usage is even present on SAM's gage, since it's one of the only two jobs whose gage can hold up to 4 uses of their regular spender (the other one being DNC).

removing kaiten was a way to double down on the flexible gameplay of SAM, and i personally find the job much more fun after the change.
also makes it less punishing for people with high ping, which is always a positive in my books. (not that devs care about that, given the state of MCH)

I don't really know how well that argument holds up. If the job is all about flexibility, why can't I start a combo with Jinpu or Shifu? Why are your combos rigid in the order you use each weaponskill? Why can't you double up on the same combo and just get 2 of the same Sen rather than being forced to collect all 3? Even a zen garden needs rocks or it's just a pit of sand. My point is, having tools that offer some structure to a job's gameplay don't necessarily invalidate the otherwise flexible examples you described.

And even if we accept that logic wholeheartedly, it doesn't resolve the issues with the Kenki gauge feeling largely superfluous now. Kaiten provided several key structural points to its usage, and your ability to maintain positionals would reward you with Shintens to burn for additional damage, but you didn't want to just use them frivolously, or you'd end up without the resources to use Kaiten when your Iaijutsu came around. Now, all you really have to structure your Shinten usage is Senei, which is only once per minute. Beyond that, just use Shinten without a care in the world. It begs the question of whether or not the Kenki gauge even matters anymore. Why not just remove it, and make Shinten a cooldown, since Senei is already on a cooldown? Sure there's the mobility buttons, but its not like other jobs don't just have those on a charge system.

And that's not saying they won't make the kenki gauge more effective in 7.0, but we're just now getting into 6.3. We have a year to go of SAM's gauge being almost as bad as SCH's fey gauge, and you know the state of your job is critical if anything about it is comparable to the healers.

Originally Posted by ty_taurus

I don't really know how well that argument holds up. If the job is all about flexibility, why can't I start a combo with Jinpu or Shifu?

Shisui is right there for you, buddy

Originally Posted by ty_taurus

And even if we accept that logic wholeheartedly, it doesn't resolve the issues with the Kenki gauge feeling largely superfluous now. Kaiten provided several key structural points to its usage, and your ability to maintain positionals would reward you with Shintens to burn for additional damage, but you didn't want to just use them frivolously, or you'd end up without the resources to use Kaiten when your Iaijutsu came around. Now, all you really have to structure your Shinten usage is Senei, which is only once per minute. Beyond that, just use Shinten without a care in the world. It begs the question of whether or not the Kenki gauge even matters anymore. Why not just remove it, and make Shinten a cooldown, since Senei is already on a cooldown? Sure there's the mobility buttons, but its not like other jobs don't just have those on a charge system.

during the course of building stickers you'd get around 60 kenki and kaiten costs 20. so nobody who's even trying to do a somewhat decent rotation would ever see themselves running out of kenki to use kaiten.

also, you don't use your shintens "willy-nilly" because you want to maximize the number of shintens during buff windows

Originally Posted by ty_taurus

I don’t really understand your point. Thematically, sure, the name Kaiten may have some deep connection to the concept of a samurai, but that’s not what I was referencing.

I’m saying that having a button that can massively boost the potency of any GCD action you’ll ever create does push the design of the job in a corner as you have to consider how that influences the jobs rotation from multiple angles every time you add a weapon skill to it. There may be actions the design team wants to add to SAM but can’t because it messes up their rotation considering how it will increase the demand for Kaiten and this increase the amount of Kenki you spend every minute.

But again, even if that’s true, there was no point in sterilizing Kaiten now when those design ideas are not yet being implemented.

that Breath Argument was something I discovered from looking back at my Aikido Training:
I paid attention to breath into my Technique to make them more effective.
now let's look at the Samurai from FFXIV:
The Samurai pays 20 Kenki to use Kaiten for the next Weaponskill to boost the damage.

which for me explains the Reason for Kaiten to exist. About the corner that you mentioned, I'd say it's less a Corner and more a Pillar of the Samurai Gameplay, since why shouldn't be Kenki there to boost weaponskills? Instead of a Corner I see it more like that You're supposed to use Kaiten on Weaponskills and not on Abilities. If you could boost everything with Kaiten, I would see it more as a Corner aswell though currently Kenki is just there to gate Shinten Spam.. yay.. and yeah removing a Skill with no alternative (outside of Auto-Crit.. lol) is sloppy. Rather than removing Kaiten they should've changed Kaiten so the next Weaponskill would've been a guaranteed Direct Hit. That way we would've kept our Skill and Resource Management and the devs got their wish of balance, i guess.

Agreed. Kaiten did a great job at making abilities flow together. The overall changes has made the job feel incredibly clunky for me, and not satisfying at all to play.

This is just me posting in solidarity that yes, I do still hate the change even two full patches.

Still waiting for my feedback to be acknowledged, SE. :^ )