Thread: Compiled SAM threads against 6.1 changes / Kaiten removal

Originally Posted by cjbeagle

Not only the notable lack of samurai in the new Ultimate, but also a suspiciously high amount of monks. HMM...

It's almost like there wasn't enough time to gear another job before ultimate after slaughtering the job in 6.1. They're doing a great job over there. I wish these awful changes could have waited until 6.2 or whenever they planned on doing their major changes

Originally Posted by Silnoa

I think you have the right of it. From what I've read on this, it sounds like Kaiten was difficult for them to design around, but there isn't a lot of detail on why exactly. If you look at these changes through that lens, it makes sense that a primary goal of these changes was to remove Kaiten. I suspect that the devs locked in on removing Kaiten early in the process and that explains why they did not do some of the button merging ideas players have suggested as alternatives that would be more aimed at reducing button bloat. Essentially, button bloat was not the problem the devs were trying to solve.

What I'm unclear on is what the nature of their "restriction" with Kaiten was. Was it just causing problems for patch to patch balancing or was more of a difficulty when trying to make changes for major expansions (like adding new actions). If it was the latter, I 100% agree that they should have waited until 7.0 to remove Kaiten.

Ultimately, my biggest problem with the changes is that the rotation feels hollow now. Without something else to spend Kenki on we're left just spamming Shinten and Kenki may as well not even exist anymore, and that just isn't very fun. I think I'd be more ok with the changes if they added something else to spend Kenki on that would impact the rotation in a meaningful way.


A translated quote from Yoshi P. from the FFXIV Reddit Discord Translation\Live Letter Channel (https://discord.gg/ffxiv):
"...and on Kaiten getting removed we did that because we want to do away having to be restricted by that move"

Indeed. They say it was restrictive, but that hardly explains why. If we had an idea of what they mean or intend behind that, we as a whole might be able to find ways to move forward, but CelestiCer is right so far in that nothing has been solved by this change.

I hope we get an explanation somewhere soon. I want my main job to be fun again.

Originally Posted by xAFROx

Indeed. They say it was restrictive, but that hardly explains why. If we had an idea of what they mean or intend behind that, we as a whole might be able to find ways to move forward, but CelestiCer is right so far in that nothing has been solved by this change.

I hope we get an explanation somewhere soon. I want my main job to be fun again.

Don't bother. They are full of shit.

All they doing is spinning shit for damage control.

Originally I made my post trying to be more open-minded and bargain the changes, try and parse them out in my head in a way that could make sense, or try to see the intentions in a measured way. But after three weeks of dealing with them, I can safely say they are all awful and they FEEL worse every time I touch my formerly favorite job.

Here to hoping they actually acknowledge our cries, come to their senses and revert these awful changes. Because right now for me, playing SAM is actually depressing.

Originally Posted by xAFROx

Indeed. They say it was restrictive, but that hardly explains why.

Samurai burst was causing dancer and bard to become degenerate with respect to Machinist and that made balancing the ranged role very difficult for them. They explained that part of the reason for Samurai's rebalancing of power was because it was too much in terms of the raid-wide burst windows and that they wanted to take power outside the raidwide burst window.

So with that in mind, imagine if they brought Kaiten back the way it was.

That would mean to maintain their stated goal of rebalancing power outside job burst, the base potency for MSQ would have to be reduced to 427 w/ autocrit.

Now just think about that. Do you really love Kaiten? Is Kaiten the button you really want to fight to keep?

Or is it the 1000+ potency MSGs you really care about?

Legitimate question, and it'd be interesting to see your answers. But please understand--Kaiten back or not, MSG power is NOT coming back, and they need it that way for other roles to be balanced well.

Originally Posted by Gruntler

Now just think about that. Do you really love Kaiten? Is Kaiten the button you really want to fight to keep?

Or is it the 1000+ potency MSGs you really care about?

Legitimate question, and it'd be interesting to see your answers. But please understand--Kaiten back or not, MSG power is NOT coming back, and they need it that way for other roles to be balanced well.

For myself, I want Kaiten back. The feel of the class was ruined, for me, by its removal. As for damage & burst, they can figure that problem out another way. But stealing away the flourish of a class that was almost entirely beloved, for the sake of 2 other classes (I guess) who have plenty of other complaints, does not seem like a very wise solution.

Originally Posted by Gruntler

Samurai burst was causing dancer and bard to become degenerate with respect to Machinist and that made balancing the ranged role very difficult for them. They explained that part of the reason for Samurai's rebalancing of power was because it was too much in terms of the raid-wide burst windows and that they wanted to take power outside the raidwide burst window.

So with that in mind, imagine if they brought Kaiten back the way it was.

That would mean to maintain their stated goal of rebalancing power outside job burst, the base potency for MSQ would have to be reduced to 427 w/ autocrit.

Now just think about that. Do you really love Kaiten? Is Kaiten the button you really want to fight to keep?

Or is it the 1000+ potency MSGs you really care about?

Legitimate question, and it'd be interesting to see your answers. But please understand--Kaiten back or not, MSG power is NOT coming back, and they need it that way for other roles to be balanced well.

Then what is the point of the flavor and fantasy of the job that is SAM as it was introduced? The whole point of the job flow was to do the slow combos in order to build to its true power, the casted finishers. What are we building to if everything needs to be flat. At that rate and thought process, are we not just playing similarly to the tanks in just repeating a basic combo over and over with little difference in damage across the board.

I've played the changes already and my whole kit does the same throughout. So what are we casting for? What is the kit for? People keep complaining about kenki not mattering anymore and they're right. But with the damage values we have, it honestly feels like Sen hardly matters now too.

The way you describe what's been done and why is a literal sledgehammer to a single brick in the all like nothing is wrong. The wall is still damaged if you do that. It's still intact, but it's not a solid wall anymore.

So why the change? If it's about balance on a greater whole, why is it just SAM and not, I don't know, the entire role you stated was an issue?

We can't forget that the devs are the ones who created this supposed issue to begin with by making everything so focused on a specific burst window. At the logic presented, why have bursts at all?

There's no more expression or uniqueness in the design. It started with tanks and healers, and now the dps too.

So who or what are these changes actually for?

Originally Posted by FrogBiscuit

Seems absurd to balance around classes that are having less fun and making SAM not as fun to match those classes, rather then to bring BRD and MCH up to the state of classes like SAM.

It really does! I'd also like improvements to both BRD & MCH. (I make alts to specialize, and I still have my bunny as main Bard, but I would appreciate improvements there - and I pretty much dropped my MCH since the Summoner was just as easy for learning fights and did more damage.)

I can't think of another class that seemed as perfect as the Samurai. The most I can imagine is combining abilities to cut down the buttons. I'd be fine with that. Fiddle with potency if they must, but the feel of the class did NOT need a change. I'm nervous about what they're planning for the Dragoon, but it's not as perfect as the Samurai was. (I wouldn't be as nervous if not for this change.) To their credit, the Rdm was a genuine improvement - I'm happiest with that, by which I mean "DON'T TOUCH IT!" Well... I wouldn't object to combining the melee combo, for the sake of my fingers, but anyway...

Kaiten was important. Maybe they just look at numbers so much that they forget how much the feel matters. I HOPE we're reminding them.

Originally Posted by Ceridwen

Kaiten was important.

If they brought Kaiten back, they'd set the potency at under 400 for Midare Setsugekka because they're NOT going to revert the degenerate burst. Because it's degenerate, in the same ways and same reasons old Disembowl was. Just as no dragoon is reasonable in asking for the piercing debuff back, no samurai is going to be reasonable in expecting the 1000+ potency crit midares back. It's not going to happen, and wanting it back won't make it so, because it's necessary for the balance of the roles around Samurai.

Now you can make the argument that Samurai doesn't do enough damage to justify its selfishness, and if that's the case, make that your argument, and look for ways to accomplish this without the burst.

But they're not gonna bring the old MSG back. They'll adjust potencies a bit, they'll tweak it, but you're not getting 1000+ potency MSG back. So, is Kaiten that important to you that you'd be willing to take the gutting of MSG potency to get it back?

Was Kaiten Important? I disbelieve you, because NO ONE was talking about how integral it was to the samurai feel until the change was announced. NO ONE was saying that in the 4 years before Endwalker, they were saying that it existed as a mandatory button press before Iaijutsu and that's it. Because that IS what it was. It wasn't anything more.

I'm not saying your feelings aren't valid. I'm saying Kaiten isn't what you're really having a problem with. I'm saying that you're not quite being honest with yourselves, because you know if they brought Kaiten back, your Iajutsu potencies would be gutted to do so. You know they're not going to put your old burst back. You know they had problems with it, and when they have problems like that, they don't go back on that.

So, rather than try to complain and revert to that which is degenerate, instead, why not try to look at ways to improve things for you such that they are not?