Removing elemental nukes from WHM

[Alerith]

I'm going to disagree with removing these spells from WHM only because I've seen WHM Nukes salvage a run when BLMs have died or when the party is running fluidly enough for the WHM to add a little DPS.

[Shougun]

I'm going to disagree with removing these spells from WHM only because I've seen WHM Nukes salvage a run when BLMs have died or when the party is running fluidly enough for the WHM to add a little DPS.

To be fair they suggested to replace dps type A with dps type B- or Asael suggested to add Undead which would mean your healing spells turn into nukes (pretty cool mechanic). Difference between a and b just being looks and theme.


Now WHM is full on holy and BLM is kind of an offensive arcane master similar to the last few FF games.

[Alerith]

To be fair they suggested to replace dps type A with dps type B- or Asael suggested to add Undead which would mean your healing spells turn into nukes. (difference between a and b just being looks and theme)


Now WHM is full on holy and BLM is kind of an offensive arcane master similar to the last few FF games.

I would certainly be alright with that, as long as the actual damage output doesn't really change and it isn't limited to only being effective on undead.

In XI, there were very few instances in which Banish/II/III/-ga/II were ever worth casting. If they were to be given to WHM at the expense of Aero Stone and Water, I'd like them to be at least on par with those spells that it has lost. Obviously elemental properties wouldn't be applicable, but if you take away Aero and give Banish, then make it so that an unresisted Banish is equal in damage to an unresisted Aero.

Your trade is that Holy spells will do consistent damage across all elements with no elemental resistances or boosts being applicable. Elemental spells will still do decent damage, but shine even more when used against the appropriate element.

[Shougun]

I would certainly be alright with that, as long as the actual damage output doesn't really change and it isn't limited to only being effective on undead.

In XI, there were very few instances in which Banish/II/III/-ga/II were ever worth casting. If they were to be given to WHM at the expense of Aero Stone and Water, I'd like them to be at least on par with those spells that it has lost. Obviously elemental properties wouldn't be applicable, but if you take away Aero and give Banish, then make it so that an unresisted Banish is equal in damage to an unresisted Aero.

Your trade is that Holy spells will do consistent damage across all elements with no elemental resistances or boosts being applicable. Elemental spells will still do decent damage, but shine even more when used against the appropriate element.

I agree to that.


The Undead spell would be pretty cool imo, you could cast prism to get aoe Undead debuff, then cast Cura and have an aoe nuke. Cast raise and have an even more powerful nuke (although people may be pissed at you using on monsters lol).


Then of course WHM would just be great at ghosts and real undead - which I think would be best because if what I caught of WHM lore was right - it would make sense there too (banishing spirits and raising the dead - they are messing in Thals business lol).

[valetarkus]

I love the fact that WHM can deal some damage, and not like it's s ton anyway. They do need to amp up holy imo. It's wasn't as strong as I thought it should have been in 1.0. That's besides the point. Having Aero, Stone, Water all make sense to me. I would hope down the road they will get the stronger elemental skills though like tornado, break etc.

[Altena]

Your trade is that Holy spells will do consistent damage across all elements with no elemental resistances or boosts being applicable. Elemental spells will still do decent damage, but shine even more when used against the appropriate element.

This exactly.

Your "strengths" will be greatly reduced
Along with your weaknesses.. So it balances out to be a more consistent spell..

The point in my OP was to make Dia/Banish equal in strength to Aero & Stone. WHM wouldn't lose any nuking power, just get a slight adjustment to elemental affinity.

[Altena]

Just to be an ass first:

Lol you want classic identies *looks at the classic Final Fantasy Bard and remembers how you said I was making no sense..*

Cool story bro.

(Also it makes the BLM not the magic nuker because if something weak to stone honestly WHM will do better- personally tested it lol).

But this point is valid. This is sort of where WHM steps on BLM's toes a little (15 min DH I am looking at you specifically).. But in saying that I don't think the offensive strength of WHM should decrease, but more of a sideways change into the light element rather then the raw elements (stone aero water).

I'd also love to see some more holy spells for WHM, dia, banish, and cure/raise being a nuke to undead

Yes, and demons. (ie Batraal etc). While limiting WHM's "strengths" list in regards to element to only undead / demons, you are also limiting the "weakness", so in actual fact WHM's nukes will have a much wider scale of being effective then a stand alone element would be. Meaning less resits / more consistent numbers.

Perhaps they can make class abilities that dont go to the job like stone and aero do not go to WHM as an offensive spell but BLM picks them up. Then WHM picks up two new nukes extra to his normal 5+ (You could do this to other jobs too (replace X ability for Y) where it makes sense and this would make having classes have two jobs be easier as well since you could just take a few and replace the ones that you dont want like aero -> dia, stone -> banish kind of thing).

Edit: that last thing could work for jobs duo but its also messy, just wanted to add I realize its messy :P

I don't really understand that last bit, maybe I am just not reading it correctly.

If WHM wants to use elemental nukes - then all they have to do is /job off, and they have access to the BLM elements.

I remember an old white magic spell called Zombie (iirc) which allowed healer to pretty much become a very effective single target damage dealer. Basically if Zombie landed on a mob it would gain an "undead" effect to which any healing spells cast on it could do pretty nasty damage. I miss these kind of spells, they were very creative and just made the job more interesting.

But yes, I would love to see a return of offensive type spells for WHM for that extra bit of versatility and survivability should the situation arise.

I think zombie has a high chance of being OP on bosses... Although ruling it out would be silly.

Look at old old FF games. WHM has aero, stone, tornado, and quake.

Hmm to be honest the only "old old" FF game I played was FF1, and I seem to remember BLM getting those spells.. I stand corrected at it being not part of the lore to give these spells to WHM.

I'm going to disagree with removing these spells from WHM only because I've seen WHM Nukes salvage a run when BLMs have died or when the party is running fluidly enough for the WHM to add a little DPS.

It wouldn't be removing WHM's offensive ability, it would simply be changing the name, changing the animation, changing the elemental affinity a tad, and then adding Aero/Water/Stone to BLM's spell list (removing some abilities perhaps to pave the way).

WHM would still get similarly potent spells to Aero/Stone (dia/banish if implemented correctly), and of course the ability to heal.

Giving BLM this skill set would improve the currently boring spell casting system, depending on creativity.. For example AM could have an additional effect of reducing enemy's resistance to a certain element, or chaining unresisted combo from Aero>Aeroa>Aeroga>Tornado could give some form of damage bonus...

As it stands the spellcasting system for BLM is incredibly boring (for most people). Simplifying the elements back onto BLM (as the lore allows it) would increase the "fun factor" of spellcasting on BLM, while not nerfing WHM's ability by giving them equally effective spells to counter what they lost.

[Asael]

I think zombie has a high chance of being OP on bosses... Although ruling it out would be silly.

Of course, there would definitely have to be tweaks to make such a spell balanced. Say the odds of it landing on a regular mob is very likely, the odds of it landing on a NM is less likely, and the odds of it landing on a boss such as Garuda is slim to none. Then even in the event the effect does stick, casting raise for a one hit KO is out of the question, so cure bombs only. But yes, I'm sure various mechanics could be implemented so such a spell doesn't become OP.

[Shougun]

Of course, there would definitely have to be tweaks to make such a spell balanced. Say the odds of it landing on a regular mob is very likely, the odds of it landing on a NM is less likely, and the odds of it landing on a boss such as Garuda is slim to none. Then even in the event the effect does stick, casting raise for a one hit KO is out of the question, so cure bombs only. But yes, I'm sure various mechanics could be implemented so such a spell doesn't become OP.

I'd hope for stacks instead of chance to apply*.


Say that you can stack the buff, and there is a maximum multiplier. Certain monsters (like bosses) will be more resistant and will require more stacks to hit full effect - for transparency once you hit max stack it could tell you and then save it in your bestiary under monster resistances (Boss bla bla 10 stack resistance, meaning you wont get full potency till 10 stacks - some may be immune like those already undead, and you may get more complex like 10 stacks to max stack but even then you aren't at full capacity so it could read "Undead 12 * 75%" and you would know at 12 stacks you will get a max of 75% efficiency rather then what you'd expect)

As far as I know there will be a bestiary in FFXIV :P
Example for those going wtf is that:

*Or you can mix them in (like the chance increases as the stack grows (from failed tries), I just dont want to see debuffs being useless because its like "well.. he'll just dodge them all so dont waste your time")

Also could turn the buff name once at maximum to "turned undead" or something since you completed the process on them (though those who you cant get a full efficiency on would never turn all the way).

[Asael]

I'd hope for stacks instead of chance to apply.


Say that you can stack the buff, and there is a maximum multiplier. Certain monsters (like bosses) will be more resistant and will require more stacks to hit full effect - for transparency once you hit max stack it could tell you and then save it in your bestiary under monster resistances (Boss bla bla 10 stack resistance, meaning you wont get full potency till 10 stacks - some may be immune like those already undead, and you may get more complex like 10 stacks to max stack but even then you aren't at full capacity so it could read "Undead 12 * 75%" and you would know at 12 stacks you will get a max of 75% efficiency rather then what you'd expect)

As far as I know there will be a bestiary in FFXIV :P
Example for those going wtf is that:

Also could turn the buff name once at maximum to "turned undead" or something since you completed the process on them (though those who you cant get a full efficiency on would never turn all the way).

Yurp, perfect example of another mechanic that could be utilized. I miss spell stacking back when you had to cast slow over and over and over again for maximum effect. xD