Paladin vs Warrior - ARR better set roles!

[Duelle]

PLD's and WAR's need to have a similar output in terms of damage and mitigation, with a different flavor. You can't have WAR's be vastly superior for AoE, or PLD's completely outclass other thanks for single target threat and damage reduction. If there's any delta between the two beyond 5% or something of that nature, we'll continue to see job cherry picking come 2.0.

The way you do this is with diverse toolkits (AoE variations such as taunts, active mitigation differences instead of boring passive).

Thank you. Glad to see someone gets it.

[Shougun]

Thank you. Glad to see someone gets it.

>.> Thats what I've been saying.. Why you hate me




... Its because I was hating on your vanity wasnt it!


Fine! *Storms off, breaks a few vanity mirrors*




But this is tentatively what I think its best. I understand in classic FF terms each class has a specific place but in multiplayer terms its such an amazing P I A to be balancing a hybrid mix up like that. If he is to be a tank class then just make them both able to tank all contents but do it in different styles ( like I already said in this thread XD) - and you may "try" to do all contents with both but there is a such a clear winner in each type of content that its obvious they are not on equal ground.

[Duelle]

That's what I've been saying.. Why you hate me

Because of your way with the ladies and your rugged good looks?

In all seriousness, this thread just seemed to be so one-sided that I guess I missed your post. My apologies.

But this is tentatively what I think its best. I understand in classic FF terms each class has a specific place but in multiplayer terms its such an amazing P I A to be balancing a hybrid mix up like that. If he is to be a tank class then just make them both able to tank all contents but do it in different styles.

I agree with this. Not to mention that focusing on niche gameplay really limits class design because you can't have class A because it overlaps with class B's niche, you can't fix Class C because it then steps on the toes of class D, you can't implement this idea because it goes beyond the niche for that particular class, and so on.

As I said, roster of tanks, roster of healers, roster of DPS. No major differences in overall performance (because if a game with 4 tanks has all 4 perform equally, everyone wins), and none of the niche silliness.

[Reika]

Because of your way with the ladies and your rugged good looks?

In all seriousness, this thread just seemed to be so one-sided that I guess I missed your post. My apologies.

I agree with this. Not to mention that focusing on niche gameplay really limits class design because you can't have class A because it overlaps with class B's niche, you can't fix Class C because it then steps on the toes of class D, you can't implement this idea because it goes beyond the niche for that particular class, and so on.

As I said, roster of tanks, roster of healers, roster of DPS. No major differences in overall performance (because if a game with 4 tanks has all 4 perform equally, everyone wins), and none of the niche silliness.

Agree completely. All the tanks, healers and dps need to be balanced to do their jobs equal to others using their own powers. They had some aoe agro abilities on paladin, but imo they didn't do nearly as well as having a high damage axe in the face, and that is part of the flaw with the two.

Paladin needs more real defense to go along with its lower than warrior HP as well as increased agro gain off its two aoe agro abilities, as well as more practical way to use wardrum, and they added damage to wardrum after a while, but the damage is laughabe, and the cooldown is laughable. Re-adding circle slash, or even better a paladin-like aoe light attack, would help too. Warrior should have to sacrifice some of its damage but with increased enmity when in a tank role and make it comparable to paladin in a single target role, give them a spirits-within type skill, just one that is more warriorlike. Later down the line there will be more classes added that are considered 'tank' and they should certainly each perform as well as paladin and warrior in single and aoe situations. There are many other things they could do in terms of cooldowns and damage amounts they could do to balance the two, so people can actually have a job preference and be proud of their preference.

But like its been said as well, Warrior is was made like a jack of trades, and if it stays that way, shouldn't even be better at paladin at aoe tanking, but I also always felt they should go one way or the other with warrior and not try to have them able to do both.

Tho, we all have to see what changes they made to both in ARR, because there is a chance it is not still the same way as we know it. I know what I'm going to test out first in Beta.

[Duelle]

Paladin needs more real defense to go along with its lower than warrior HP as well as increased agro gain off its two aoe agro abilities, as well as more practical way to use wardrum, and they added damage to wardrum after a while, but the damage is laughabe, and the cooldown is laughable. Re-adding circle slash, or even better a paladin-like aoe light attack, would help too. Warrior should have to sacrifice some of its damage but with increased enmity when in a tank role and make it comparable to paladin in a single target role, give them a spirits-within type skill, just one that is more warriorlike. Later down the line there will be more classes added that are considered 'tank' and they should certainly each perform as well as paladin and warrior in single and aoe situations. There are many other things they could do in terms of cooldowns and damage amounts they could do to balance the two, so people can actually have a job preference and be proud of their preference.

But like its been said as well, Warrior is was made like a jack of trades, and if it stays that way, shouldn't even be better at paladin at aoe tanking, but I also always felt they should go one way or the other with warrior and not try to have them able to do both.

HP discrepancy shouldn't really be there, as while effective health is determined by a combination of defenses, health and cooldowns, it does make one tank harder to heal than the other.

Personally, one of two things should happen. You either nerf WAR damage and up enmity generation, or you buff PLD damage and even out the two so that both are generating the same DPS and enmity. Or at least take steps to close the gap to where it's only noticeable on sims and spreadsheets rather than during a boss fight.

Hate to (well, not really) pull out a WoW comparison, but the reason tank damage was buffed for prot warriors and paladins (who were sword & board) in WotLK was because the devs knew that a tank with a two-hander (death knights) could potentially wipe the floor with them in terms of DPS. Pallies were given a DoT, some reactionary abilities (Holy Shield, Reckoning) and a heavy hitting ability (Avenger's Shield). Warriors were given damage bonuses on reactionary abilities (Revenge), damage buffs for their rotation skills (Heroic Strike, Devastate), and crit bonuses on their main attack (Shield Slam). That's how the gap with death knights was for the most part closed, and it worked out pretty well, IMO.

The alternative would be to just turn WAR into a DPS job, but that would make it the second failed attempt by SE to make WAR into a tank only to just go DPS and never look back.

[stanleyyoung]

im fine with war & pld being tanks, i kinda like the different types along with some trade offs, advantage/disadvantage given certain situations since i like tanking and pretty much i could use both easily the same. the main problem i saw with 1.0 the two pld & war was that their was a bit more of a learning curve with pld then warrior. pld had some more stuff involved with it plus the fact that gear was really important more so then warrior, and im not saying gear wasn't important for warrior but for pld thier was more BS behind it which many didn't understand.

i personally saw it was easier for ppl to pick up warrior and tank then picking up pld and tanking. warrior was little more simpler and pld had a few tricks that needed to be mastered before you could preform well.