Paladin vs Warrior - ARR better set roles!

[Altena]

I agree with a lot of the posts saying PLD was a lot better then people thought it was for AOE hate..

One prime example - Flash > Rampart. That alone was quite a solid chunk of hate. After the SC nerf, WAR lost a major aoe hate source right there, as a couple of cures and the WHM is often swamped with mobs.

PLD was by far the best job to hold hate, damage mitigation was reasonably effective, and with someone who knows how to play both classes, I would pick them on PLD over WAR in pretty much all circumstances.

[Reika]

I agree with a lot of the posts saying PLD was a lot better then people thought it was for AOE hate..

One prime example - Flash > Rampart. That alone was quite a solid chunk of hate. After the SC nerf, WAR lost a major aoe hate source right there, as a couple of cures and the WHM is often swamped with mobs.

PLD was by far the best job to hold hate, damage mitigation was reasonably effective, and with someone who knows how to play both classes, I would pick them on PLD over WAR in pretty much all circumstances.

Sounds good on paper. But that rampart skill is 3m cooldown, and you would lose aoe hate a lot faster than your flash could recover. You can only heal yourself so much on targets doing actual damage to you, and unless you have the best paladin trousers, it got interrupted a lot when you were getting beat on, so the healers would even draw hate off of you. SC nerf didn't heavily effect warriors ability to be the better hate magnet for multiple targets, as I was still doing aoe parties with them near the end of the era.

Now that TP will start off max, a warrior won't even have to wait. charge in, chain some aoe skills. Thats going to be much better than flash on a cooldown and rampart - which warrior can also use.

[Altena]

Sounds good on paper. But that rampart skill is 3m cooldown, and you would lose aoe hate a lot faster than your flash could recover. You can only heal yourself so much on targets doing actual damage to you, and unless you have the best paladin trousers, it got interrupted a lot when you were getting beat on, so the healers would even draw hate off of you. SC nerf didn't heavily effect warriors ability to be the better hate magnet for multiple targets, as I was still doing aoe parties with them near the end of the era.

I am no career PLD but it is pretty common knowledge how rampart works, and how useful it is for a nice initial hate boost. It seems to work for the most part when my group's tank opens the fight with it. Long cooldown aside, it shouldn't be the only thing you rely on for hate of course but for crowd control, it is more often then not enough to keep them looking at the PLD until the mobs die.

Now that TP will start off max, a warrior won't even have to wait. charge in, chain some aoe skills. Thats going to be much better than flash on a cooldown and rampart - which warrior can also use.

You have to remember that other DD's also start off with full TP - along with PLD. Even a WAR charging in with full TP and spamming every WS combo they have, it will not match or come close to a DRG or MNK's while under rampage (single target).

However, once again, in cases where there is a large crowd of mobs, hate does not have to be extremely heavy - just enough to hold the hate off the WHM until the mobs die which is 9 times out of 10, an extremely fast process (in the 1.x system).

While yes, WAR has the means of AOE / Crowd Control in a couple of situations, PLD is by far a more useful and solid tank in a huge majority of the situations in end game content so far. When your DD's start becoming extremely heavily geared, and your WAR's are trying to keep up - Provoke, Antagonise, and the weak WAR weapon skills (under Rampage) are definitely not enough to hold hate off those DRG or MNK zergs.

Yes the SC nerf, tied with the Collusion nerf reduced WAR's ability tenfold. It is much easier to pull hate off a WAR then it is a PLD, presuming they both know how to play those roles.

I could be totally confused, but does anyone remember the "Don't Pull with Provoke" thing? Was that fixed?

For those that don't know, your first attack didn't give any hate, so if you pulled with voke, for example, you wouldn't get the hate from that first provoke. You would provoke some mob, then the BRD would get aggro off you the first time they attack.

The action (regardless what action that is) that makes the mob go from passive to agressive does not increase any enmity. (Well at least in 1.x) There isn't really an answer for this in 2.0 as far as I am aware, but I daresay that won't change.

[Reika]

I am no career PLD but it is pretty common knowledge how rampart works, and how useful it is for a nice initial hate boost. It seems to work for the most part when my group's tank opens the fight with it. Long cooldown aside, it shouldn't be the only thing you rely on for hate of course but for crowd control, it is more often then not enough to keep them looking at the PLD until the mobs die.



You have to remember that other DD's also start off with full TP - along with PLD. Even a WAR charging in with full TP and spamming every WS combo they have, it will not match or come close to a DRG or MNK's while under rampage (single target).

However, once again, in cases where there is a large crowd of mobs, hate does not have to be extremely heavy - just enough to hold the hate off the WHM until the mobs die which is 9 times out of 10, an extremely fast process (in the 1.x system).

While yes, WAR has the means of AOE / Crowd Control in a couple of situations, PLD is by far a more useful and solid tank in a huge majority of the situations in end game content so far. When your DD's start becoming extremely heavily geared, and your WAR's are trying to keep up - Provoke, Antagonise, and the weak WAR weapon skills (under Rampage) are definitely not enough to hold hate off those DRG or MNK zergs.

Yes the SC nerf, tied with the Collusion nerf reduced WAR's ability tenfold. It is much easier to pull hate off a WAR then it is a PLD, presuming they both know how to play those roles.



The action (regardless what action that is) that makes the mob go from passive to agressive does not increase any enmity. (Well at least in 1.x) There isn't really an answer for this in 2.0 as far as I am aware, but I daresay that won't change.

The problem with your take on rampart is that Warrior can use rampart too. 1 on 1, non-retarded pld vs non-retarded warrior, warrior will win at Aoe agro. You have to look at the skills that one job can use that the other cant, so rampart and sentinel have to come out of the factoring. In 2.0, having full tp at the start would help the warrior more with aoe threat than, because pld doesnt have any aoe based tp skills that it can use before a block (wardrum), while warrior can just go apeshit and win.

But in anycase, I was thinking at work and I think they can leave it like it is IF and ONLY IF the dungeons promote balanced play, meaning you'll always have a paladin and a warrior in the party. I won't mind working together, but I will mind it if you have to pick one or the other because the content will be much harder or impossible by having one of them around. I dispised the need to class stack and am looking forward to class and job changes that make it stupid or unneccisary to do so.

[stanleyyoung]

But in anycase, I was thinking at work and I think they can leave it like it is IF and ONLY IF the dungeons promote balanced play, meaning you'll always have a paladin and a warrior in the party. I won't mind working together, but I will mind it if you have to pick one or the other because the content will be much harder or impossible by having one of them around. I dispised the need to class stack and am looking forward to class and job changes that make it stupid or unneccisary to do so.

i fine with main and back up tanks or even two types of tanks as long as they are balanced and viable to use. i also hate class stacking and having either classes or jobs obsolete/pointless to use give certain content sucks. But first what matters most is how SE balances the content for low/full man, classes over jobs & vice versa, main & back up tanks etc etc along with having class stacking becoming something of the past. Next it comes down to the design of the class/job and how it goes about doing its role.

[Ramesses]

I agree with a lot of the posts saying PLD was a lot better then people thought it was for AOE hate..

One prime example - Flash > Rampart. That alone was quite a solid chunk of hate. After the SC nerf, WAR lost a major aoe hate source right there, as a couple of cures and the WHM is often swamped with mobs.

PLD was by far the best job to hold hate, damage mitigation was reasonably effective, and with someone who knows how to play both classes, I would pick them on PLD over WAR in pretty much all circumstances.

Totally agree with this... Paladin in 1.0 was actually quite good at holding hate but many players were not too focused on really blending the PLD skills together to make the class shine. If in 2.0 it can get an even higher hate amplifier added to divine veil and holy succor, then Paladin will really become a beast of a tank on the battlefield.