Paladin vs Warrior - ARR better set roles!

[darkstarpoet1]

Endgame the roles felt fine to me. You could go with either in most fights then there were a couple fights where you'd want to go either Warrior or Paladin. That is almost an ideal situation for two classes competing for party roles.

The biggest issue for Paladins were EXP parties but this is sort of a perpetual issue with pretty much every MMO ever made where you have a defensive and offensive tank classes. Offense wins in EXP parties, period.

It's even worse when you get into Steel Cyclone levels. Paladins are completely useless compared to Warriors with SC. So the main thing that Paladins need here is some actual AE damage. The return of Circle Slash would be nice; something that is close to damage to Steel Cyclone but doesn't offer any additional effects.

now this i can completely understand. i did most of my exp groups with the same group of people so they didn't care what class you were, but i can really imagine how getting into a random exp party of a pld would have been a pita.

[Nadrojj]

I don't want to see Warrior's role diminished as a tank, I would like to see a buff for Paladins. I'd like to see them make Paladin a stronger single enemy tank than warrior, but still have the ability to tank multiple mobs. Always nice to have two tank options instead of only one. Nothing worse than being a full party and lacking a tank to tank mobs.

[Rylock]

I'm surprised this is still a point of contention honestly, I've done pretty much all the content in the game as either tank (there are some exceptions, gg hyperifrit WAR), and each had its pros and cons. Yes WAR was stable, stick 2 whms on a warrior and they have enough of a health buffer that they will never die, but pld could survive through rougher situations and let you get away with 1 whm more often. If you are trying to go for speed some fights are better with war, some are better with pld, some can be handled either way.

If you guys want to talk about exp/grind/SB parties that's a different matter, but for endgame dungeons and bosses PLD was a viable tank for EVERYTHING, while WAR could tank most things, but not all.

[Alkimi]

(as others have stated, Darnus Hard and Ifrit X require a PLD)

Darnus probably but Ifrit X has been beaten with WAR tank, one strat was to use 5 WARs on it. The only thing is he needs to be ridiculously good, and you needed 2 WHMs (for MP and enmity reasons) whereas with PLD you could get away with 1 very good WHM and a BRD. I'll agree though using a PLD is still preferable.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5tfS7C-JZes

Edit: Just noticed on that video, holy crap at his HP dropping when they all use Vengeance lol.

[Shougun]

I don't want to see Warrior's role diminished as a tank, I would like to see a buff for Paladins. I'd like to see them make Paladin a stronger single enemy tank than warrior, but still have the ability to tank multiple mobs. Always nice to have two tank options instead of only one. Nothing worse than being a full party and lacking a tank to tank mobs.

Maybe just me being "gotta give everyone love" but I think they should make for the most part the tanks be able to do similar things but in different styles.


Rather then PLD - single monsters (which they freaking rock on, thats why they are great for bosses), or WAR - multi monsters. Just make them both tank but in different styles. Paladin is energized by helping his team and being the unbreakable pillar (*) and the Warrior is energized on his own rage and combatant ability. (Which I think Paladin needs a buff in his aoe and dps, while the Warrior should get a few more skills that promote madness and being in the yellow "THIS IS SPARTA" with blood always dripping down his face).


You can of course make each class good at certain events and monsters but then you will never be able to complete the game as one class except for maybe WHM. Since "oh monks own this skeleton boss and DRG's do zero damage" or "because of elemental weakness/strength BLM will suck aganist this stone weak boss, no one wants them".


Kind of like what happened to hamlet where a lot of classes where not allowed in because they just sucked for it. Which is definitely more hardcore and old school (not all classes helped at everything in tactics).

@Darnus: My group won against Darnus with a warrior..



*A big part I hate about jobs is how not all the class spells really fit into the job. I hope to see a lot of Paladin specific holy spells rather then just eating up the White Mage's classical spells. Perhaps Paladain cast radiance which turn his next normal spell into something else like phalanx into a Radiant Phalanx that spits off regens while being attacked. Edit: before a Paladin says but those spells were useful.. I didn't say they weren't :P It just seemed like a waste of game play excitement giving a in the frey class an out of the frey spell set.

[ChiefCurrahee]

I'd like paladin to be the emnity king. I want to see single target MEGA STRONG provokes, and STRONG AOE taunts.
AOE taunts that aren't attached to a conditional modifier like war drum was.

Bring back circle blade for some AOE damage

I really want to see Paladin be able to control the flow of the fight. If a blackmage peels a mob off the paladin I want the tools available to bring that target back to the tank.

I wouldn't mind sacraficing attack power for defensive power as long as there is a noticable difference in damage midigation. meaning not like in ver 1.0 where if Ifrit attacked a paladin, they would be hit for 500, if Ifrit turned around and attacked a blackmage the black mage would be hit for 500.
I want to see significant midigation in ver 2.0 so if Ifrit attacked a paladin they would be hit for 250. If Ifrit attacked a blackmage they would be hit for 500.

This was by far my biggest gripe with ver 1.0 after the job introductions. When facing higher level mobs level correction made it not matter who you placed in for the tank, because defence didn't matter. It was only a matter of damage output (why warrior became a premier tank) vs emnity control of the rest of your party.

Please please please, build Paladin to be the first choice as main tank. Give them the tools to midigate damage and control emnity to an extreame.

[Shougun]

I'd like paladin to be the emnity king. I want to see single target MEGA STRONG provokes, and STRONG AOE taunts.
AOE taunts that aren't attached to a conditional modifier like war drum was.

Bring back circle blade for some AOE damage

I really want to see Paladin be able to control the flow of the fight. If a blackmage peels a mob off the paladin I want the tools available to bring that target back to the tank.

I wouldn't mind sacraficing attack power for defensive power as long as there is a noticable difference in damage midigation. meaning not like in ver 1.0 where if Ifrit attacked a paladin, they would be hit for 500, if Ifrit turned around and attacked a blackmage the black mage would be hit for 500.
I want to see significant midigation in ver 2.0 so if Ifrit attacked a paladin they would be hit for 250. If Ifrit attacked a blackmage they would be hit for 500.

This was by far my biggest gripe with ver 1.0 after the job introductions. When facing higher level mobs level correction made it not matter who you placed in for the tank, because defence didn't matter. It was only a matter of damage output (why warrior became a premier tank) vs emnity control of the rest of your party.

Please please please, build Paladin to be the first choice as main tank. Give them the tools to midigate damage and control emnity to an extreame.

Depending on the location and time (level), Paladins are the premier tank. A lot of bosses are really smooth with a PLD vs a WAR that just dropped even while they where doing everything they could because the boss scored a critical.

[dbrewer225]

i hope the devs are reading this thread cuase paldain really needs to be able to have dmg reduction traits to help tank. its bad when paladins like in ff11 needs shadows to survive. i hope that even with all classes being revamped that we see a big difference cause the formulas in version 1.0 didnt make no sense at all. you can have all the def in the world and it still wouldnt make a bit of difference. so i hope in 2.0 we see stats actally play a role instaed of i pump 50 vit into paladin and i get 10 hp added to my paladin and 5 defense added to my base stats.

[Lucke]

Someone brought up a good point about ARR getting rid of speedruns. I think a big part of WAR>PLD was that people needed to get through the content ASAP for the good stuff, like Darklight bodies. Since, WARs can tank AND do dmg at the SAME TIME really made PLD useless. I mean let's be honest, WAR can tank, and help kill crap faster which results in a better chance of speedrun. FACT

People will still steamroll through dungeons in ARR because people are idiots FACT but hopefully with that speedrun bullshi* gone, that might open the door a crack for PLDs.

Another thing I noticed was we only started using PLD vs Chimera when we found out healing adds a ton of aggro, so a PLD can keep hate better than a WAR just by spam healing him/herself. Maybe SE will add that schtick (however it's spelled) for some mobs or bosses where cures give you 500% more aggro than normal so PLD would be better for that since the WHM would tear enmity from the WAR from spam curing.

[Aish]

I think it's fine as it is. WAR is for AoE tanking, PLD for Single-target. Both classes have something that applies to the other. PLD get AoE Flash/War Drum (And if you knew what you were doing, Rampart too), WAR have Skull Sunder's combo bonus.

Steel Cyclone on a single boss is not this OP WS that some people have said it is. It's weak enough to almost consider it utterly useless when there's only one target (a boss target, not some random trash). The main HP leech from WAR comes from critical hits with Rampage up and is based on how much damage the crit does. Last time I checked, tank crit rates on bosses were pretty abyssmal, even with the combo bonus on Steel Cyclone increasing crit rate. Couple that with low damage due to high boss defense, and that Steel Cyclone isn't anywhere near as OP.

I'd say that, on single target bosses, being able to block 50% of incoming physical damage for 20 seconds every minute (Edit: Divine Veil) on top of being able to block 1 physical attack completely and recover HP based on how hard that hit would have been every minute (Aegis Boon) is way more OP. Oh and don't forget that you have another ability that increases your block chance for...about 30 seconds and has a trait that makes your blocks recover MP (Edit: Outmaneuver, I was always of the opinion that it was best to use Divine Veil and Outmaneuver at the same time.).