Paladin vs Warrior - ARR better set roles!

[Duelle]

PLD's and WAR's need to have a similar output in terms of damage and mitigation, with a different flavor. You can't have WAR's be vastly superior for AoE, or PLD's completely outclass other thanks for single target threat and damage reduction. If there's any delta between the two beyond 5% or something of that nature, we'll continue to see job cherry picking come 2.0.

The way you do this is with diverse toolkits (AoE variations such as taunts, active mitigation differences instead of boring passive).

Thank you. Glad to see someone gets it.

[Shougun]

Thank you. Glad to see someone gets it.

>.> Thats what I've been saying.. Why you hate me




... Its because I was hating on your vanity wasnt it!


Fine! *Storms off, breaks a few vanity mirrors*




But this is tentatively what I think its best. I understand in classic FF terms each class has a specific place but in multiplayer terms its such an amazing P I A to be balancing a hybrid mix up like that. If he is to be a tank class then just make them both able to tank all contents but do it in different styles ( like I already said in this thread XD) - and you may "try" to do all contents with both but there is a such a clear winner in each type of content that its obvious they are not on equal ground.

[Lucke]

What about a potent "killer" effect to each? Maybe like PLD get Undead Killer which improves damage, defense, aggro, and cure damage vs undead, and WAR gets like, I dunno, Beast killer where their DEF, ATK, Aggro, and uhh....whatever else.

I'm not talking weaksauce like XI, but something that makes people think, "Gee, we're gonna be fighting Odin (he's death/undead right?) so we can go WAR or PLD." PLD might hold an edge over the WAR. Or you fight Chimera which is a beast, so WAR will have an easier time with Chimera.

That's not to say a PLD can't tank anything but Undead, or WAR can't tank anything but beasts. I dunno...

[Shougun]

What about a potent "killer" effect to each? Maybe like PLD get Undead Killer which improves damage, defense, aggro, and cure damage vs undead, and WAR gets like, I dunno, Beast killer where their DEF, ATK, Aggro, and uhh....whatever else.

I'm not talking weaksauce like XI, but something that makes people think, "Gee, we're gonna be fighting Odin (he's death/undead right?) so we can go WAR or PLD." PLD might hold an edge over the WAR. Or you fight Chimera which is a beast, so WAR will have an easier time with Chimera.

That's not to say a PLD can't tank anything but Undead, or WAR can't tank anything but beasts. I dunno...

I'd like to see some killer materia or something but I dont think its a good idea to add it to classes in a strong suace way :P


Dragoons could often fear dragons lower then themselves and that was cool. But if you make it too powerful you'll get class exclusive content just like we are already talking about where PLD never gets invited to X and WAR never gets invited to Y, just like in hamlet where if you are anything but tank, healer, crafter, or gatherer you'd never get a place.


So.. adding a more potent killer effect to materia or to weapons that could be cool - but not to a class.

[Xatsh]

Maby it is the tank purest in me but I say leave pld as the main turtle tank. I do not feel thier dmg should be = or near = to wars.

Pld should be high def/dmg mitigation, low dmg.

War should be ballance with both for tanking, they need to buff their dmg dealing ability some.

I do not see why a sword should deal as much dmg as a battle axe. Or how an axe can block as much dmg as a shield. I say let them be different. Making all classes = each other makes everything bland and the same. Jobs are specified rolls they should be that way... nothing alike.

[Shougun]

Maby it is the tank purest in me but I say leave pld as the main turtle tank. I do not feel thier dmg should be = or near = to wars.

Pld should be high def/dmg mitigation, low dmg.

War should be ballance with both for tanking, they need to buff their dmg dealing ability some.

I do not see why a sword should deal as much dmg as a battle axe. Or how an axe can block as much dmg as a shield. I say let them be different. Making all classes = each other makes everything bland and the same. Jobs are specified rolls they should be that way... nothing alike.

Well classes roles overlap and some such a point that they are the same role just different play style. Hybrid roles are usually the worst to balance because you dont want the player to feel like they suck but you also dont want other players to be like "wtf, he does both things better then me and that other guy"..


My idea why PLD could woop out damage is that you'd relate a lot of his stuff to holy magic. And the WAR to being in a blind blood rage 24 7 he'd ignore the damage. Both are actually quite common themes in games and in sort for FF. If they are not going to make the holy swordsmen you could move some of his stuff into PLD as well - I mean Cecil was known as a badass.

[stanleyyoung]

im fine with war & pld being tanks, i kinda like the different types along with some trade offs, advantage/disadvantage given certain situations since i like tanking and pretty much i could use both easily the same. the main problem i saw with 1.0 the two pld & war was that their was a bit more of a learning curve with pld then warrior. pld had some more stuff involved with it plus the fact that gear was really important more so then warrior, and im not saying gear wasn't important for warrior but for pld thier was more BS behind it which many didn't understand.

i personally saw it was easier for ppl to pick up warrior and tank then picking up pld and tanking. warrior was little more simpler and pld had a few tricks that needed to be mastered before you could preform well.

[Duelle]

That's what I've been saying.. Why you hate me

Because of your way with the ladies and your rugged good looks?

In all seriousness, this thread just seemed to be so one-sided that I guess I missed your post. My apologies.

But this is tentatively what I think its best. I understand in classic FF terms each class has a specific place but in multiplayer terms its such an amazing P I A to be balancing a hybrid mix up like that. If he is to be a tank class then just make them both able to tank all contents but do it in different styles.

I agree with this. Not to mention that focusing on niche gameplay really limits class design because you can't have class A because it overlaps with class B's niche, you can't fix Class C because it then steps on the toes of class D, you can't implement this idea because it goes beyond the niche for that particular class, and so on.

As I said, roster of tanks, roster of healers, roster of DPS. No major differences in overall performance (because if a game with 4 tanks has all 4 perform equally, everyone wins), and none of the niche silliness.

[Starlord]

You know if you take away WARs Aoe move(s) OR Dumb down their AOE moves, PLD's will have more of a reason to tank weather they are geared well or not.

The goal with all the jobs is, to find a reason for any party to accept you into their. If the job isn't effective enough, that job will have a hard time doing much of anything.

[Reika]

Because of your way with the ladies and your rugged good looks?

In all seriousness, this thread just seemed to be so one-sided that I guess I missed your post. My apologies.

I agree with this. Not to mention that focusing on niche gameplay really limits class design because you can't have class A because it overlaps with class B's niche, you can't fix Class C because it then steps on the toes of class D, you can't implement this idea because it goes beyond the niche for that particular class, and so on.

As I said, roster of tanks, roster of healers, roster of DPS. No major differences in overall performance (because if a game with 4 tanks has all 4 perform equally, everyone wins), and none of the niche silliness.

Agree completely. All the tanks, healers and dps need to be balanced to do their jobs equal to others using their own powers. They had some aoe agro abilities on paladin, but imo they didn't do nearly as well as having a high damage axe in the face, and that is part of the flaw with the two.

Paladin needs more real defense to go along with its lower than warrior HP as well as increased agro gain off its two aoe agro abilities, as well as more practical way to use wardrum, and they added damage to wardrum after a while, but the damage is laughabe, and the cooldown is laughable. Re-adding circle slash, or even better a paladin-like aoe light attack, would help too. Warrior should have to sacrifice some of its damage but with increased enmity when in a tank role and make it comparable to paladin in a single target role, give them a spirits-within type skill, just one that is more warriorlike. Later down the line there will be more classes added that are considered 'tank' and they should certainly each perform as well as paladin and warrior in single and aoe situations. There are many other things they could do in terms of cooldowns and damage amounts they could do to balance the two, so people can actually have a job preference and be proud of their preference.

But like its been said as well, Warrior is was made like a jack of trades, and if it stays that way, shouldn't even be better at paladin at aoe tanking, but I also always felt they should go one way or the other with warrior and not try to have them able to do both.

Tho, we all have to see what changes they made to both in ARR, because there is a chance it is not still the same way as we know it. I know what I'm going to test out first in Beta.