So Devs...Are we going to rule with an iron fist this time around?

[darkstarpoet1]

i do hope they take more of an active role in banning bots in rmt's, but i really doubt they do. with him allowing add-ons and all it seems to be more of a giving permission to do underhanded things.

[Treach]

i do hope they take more of an active role in banning bots in rmt's, but i really doubt they do. with him allowing add-ons and all it seems to be more of a giving permission to do underhanded things.

Addons are not an evil thing and should not be considered so, look at world of warcraft which I think I can use as an example without pitchforks spearing my rear. You have the basic default ui where your mana bar is in the top left corner and you are tired of dragging your eye there from the middle of your 42" to check it, well lets make an addon to move it, maybe even re-size it slightly larger and while we are at it lets close those gaps between the action bar and make them smaller since we already know what action is on what bar.

You guys are acting like addons are packet bots (nasa) and that dragons aery still exists as it did from 2003 to finally being changed to force pop. Don't confuse a customizable ui with a packet bot.

[darkstarpoet1]

Addons are not an evil thing and should not be considered so, look at world of warcraft which I think I can use as an example without pitchforks spearing my rear. You have the basic default ui where your mana bar is in the top left corner and you are tired of dragging your eye there from the middle of your 42" to check it, well lets make an addon to move it, maybe even re-size it slightly larger and while we are at it lets close those gaps between the action bar and make them smaller since we already know what action is on what bar.

You guys are acting like addons are packet bots (nasa) and that dragons aery still exists as it did from 2003 to finally being changed to force pop. Don't confuse a customizable ui with a packet bot.

no, i am not pointing and saying all add-ons will be bad. what i am saying though is with the addition of add ons it will become more difficult to determine which actions other players are doing is an add on and which is a 3rd party bot. bots run outside of the game and are really only noticed by other players and reported. if you see someone doing something in game you don't do then you will actually have to consider whether that different action is an add-on causing it or a 3rd party bot.

believe me i do basic programming on the side and it is very difficult to determine if something is sniffing packets and then doing an action or if you are doing it yourself. the only real way se would be able to determine if someone is using a 3rd party bot after the add ons are allowed is to have a program installed on the person's comp and then report to them what you are doing. that would turn into major lawsuits because of invasion of privacy.

i'm not going to club you over the head for bringing up wow. i know most add-ons are great additions. i also know that by allowing them people will press the envelope to see how far they can go with the add-ons though. once people get to the point they stop allowing add-ons to do things they will then continue making the 3rd party programs. by doing this it makes finding those 3rd party programs even more difficult to find and punish because there's already add-ons that do the basics that advanced program does.

edit: i'm not comparing an add on to a bot, but what i am saying is that people will try to push that envelope as far as they can. they will try to blur the lines between the 2 just as much as they can.

[Wolfie]

Addons are fully traceable because they need to access the game API. They are also fully dependent on what sections of the API are exposed and how the developers want people to use the addons.

Bots are not limited and unrelated to addons, because they do not use any API and do not interact directly with any game code in any fashion. They replicate human behavior via automated button presses and mouse movements. They are completely untraceable in any automatic way and require large amounts of human investigation on a case-by-case basis.

Games that expose their API and are smart about it in restricting their usage like not allowing API that performs character actions are no more at risk of having bots than games who don't have an API at all.

[darkstarpoet1]

Addons are fully traceable because they need to access the game API. They are also fully dependent on what sections of the API are exposed and how the developers want people to use the addons.

Bots are not limited and unrelated to addons, because they do not use any API and do not interact directly with any game code in any fashion. They replicate human behavior via automated button presses and mouse movements. They are completely untraceable in any automatic way and require large amounts of human investigation on a case-by-case basis.

Games that expose their API and are smart about it in restricting their usage like not allowing API that performs character actions are no more at risk of having bots than games who don't have an API at all.

yes, this is true and this has nothing to do with what i am talking about at all.

yes, add-ons are tracable because they are actually part of the game. let's say for example someone makes an add-on to just kneel over and over. it is completely legit and does nothing wrong. i'm making an example and not saying se will allow any sort of player motion as an allowed add-on.

there are some of the more advanced crafting bots that when they run out of materials for one synth they stand to change to the next synth they want to do and then kneel again. if their list of items to create has used all of their materials then the bot kneels over and over until it is stopped.

when a person saw a character in the crafting position all day and then automatically start standing and kneeling over and over it was a good indication that the person was a bot. that was a pretty good indicator that they were botting and they should be reported.

now take that kneeling add-on i mentioned that is completely legit and is traceable by se. if you see someone just kneeling over and over you don't know if it's just that add-on that is legit or if it's the bot out of materials. that basic add-on has blurred the line on whether you should report that character or not.

that is just one example of what i mean by someone trying to blur the lines between legit add-ons and a bot because it has given some indecision on the behalf of the other players on whether it should be reported or not.

[Jhourne]

yes, this is true and this has nothing to do with what i am talking about at all.

yes, add-ons are tracable because they are actually part of the game. let's say for example someone makes an add-on to just kneel over and over. it is completely legit and does nothing wrong. i'm making an example and not saying se will allow any sort of player motion as an allowed add-on.

there are some of the more advanced crafting bots that when they run out of materials for one synth they stand to change to the next synth they want to do and then kneel again. if their list of items to create has used all of their materials then the bot kneels over and over until it is stopped.

when a person saw a character in the crafting position all day and then automatically start standing and kneeling over and over it was a good indication that the person was a bot. that was a pretty good indicator that they were botting and they should be reported.

now take that kneeling add-on i mentioned that is completely legit and is traceable by se. if you see someone just kneeling over and over you don't know if it's just that add-on that is legit or if it's the bot out of materials. that basic add-on has blurred the line on whether you should report that character or not.

that is just one example of what i mean by someone trying to blur the lines between legit add-ons and a bot because it has given some indecision on the behalf of the other players on whether it should be reported or not.

I really don't see that being much of an issue. WoW has a very liberal API for their addons and it was still really easy to pick out botters.

[IndigoDarkwolf]

for example someone makes an add-on to just kneel over and over. it is completely legit and does nothing wrong. i'm making an example and not saying se will allow any sort of player motion as an allowed add-on.

Well, supposing S|E exposes an API that allows emotes, and /kneel is an emote that plays the exact same animation as kneeling to craft, there'll still be a dead giveaway as to whether the player is kneeling by emote or kneeling by crafting: A chat message saying "Darkstar Poet kneels mightily", or some such.

So, if a player starts kneeling over and over without that message appearing in chat, they're likely botting.

I think it's unlikely that S|E would expose an API that allows automation of the crafting process. If they do, though, then I guess that would mean they're okay with bot crafting.

Back on point, though, I do hope S|E rules with an iron fist on this topic. I agree that RMTs are a scourge. If we're lucky, they'll implement a quick way of reporting RMT players by clicking on the player name in the chat box (to open a pre-filled confirmation window, etc), or something similar.

[Lady]

Well, supposing S|E exposes an API that allows emotes, and /kneel is an emote that plays the exact same animation as kneeling to craft, there'll still be a dead giveaway as to whether the player is kneeling by emote or kneeling by crafting: A chat message saying "Darkstar Poet kneels mightily", or some such.

So, if a player starts kneeling over and over without that message appearing in chat, they're likely botting.

Not if they use /emote motion.. only get the motion and no message in chat.

[darkstarpoet1]

Well, supposing S|E exposes an API that allows emotes, and /kneel is an emote that plays the exact same animation as kneeling to craft, there'll still be a dead giveaway as to whether the player is kneeling by emote or kneeling by crafting: A chat message saying "Darkstar Poet kneels mightily", or some such.

So, if a player starts kneeling over and over without that message appearing in chat, they're likely botting.

I think it's unlikely that S|E would expose an API that allows automation of the crafting process. If they do, though, then I guess that would mean they're okay with bot crafting.

Back on point, though, I do hope S|E rules with an iron fist on this topic. I agree that RMTs are a scourge. If we're lucky, they'll implement a quick way of reporting RMT players by clicking on the player name in the chat box (to open a pre-filled confirmation window, etc), or something similar.

not completely true. if you are using the emote it is correct, but if you put in like "/dance motion" you will do the dancing animation without a message at all.

there's a few friends that have a macro that does a full story using /emote motions and it's actually quite amusing to watch. icehunter on the forums is one of them. his is friggin hillarious.

edited to get back on point: i was just pointing out a way in which players could press the envelope to allow more stuff to sneak by. i'm in complete agreement that they need to be much more active in finding and banning bots and rmt's. i wish they'd even go a step further and ban people sitting idle and leeching exp, but that's my own personal thinking. to me going idle and leeching exp while others do the work is the exact same thing as going idle and letting a bot exp for you. both ways you are getting exp for doing nothing.

[fusional]

Addons are fully traceable because they need to access the game API. They are also fully dependent on what sections of the API are exposed and how the developers want people to use the addons.

Bots are not limited and unrelated to addons, because they do not use any API and do not interact directly with any game code in any fashion. They replicate human behavior via automated button presses and mouse movements. They are completely untraceable in any automatic way and require large amounts of human investigation on a case-by-case basis.

Games that expose their API and are smart about it in restricting their usage like not allowing API that performs character actions are no more at risk of having bots than games who don't have an API at all.

kudos to you for explaining it much more politely than me.

the abundant stupidity in topics like this is bound to give me an embolism someday.