CG Midlander

[Seraphe]

Yea, that's what I thought as well but the moonlight just shines too bright, even in this forest. I guess there should be a shadow somewhere.

[NoloeTazier]

Very interesting, I hadn't even thought about Ascians having a Primal of their own. Maybe Travanchet took the Limsa Horn because the Horns not only work on regular monsters such as Goobbues, Coblyns, and Sea Serpents but also on Primals. But then of course I have to ask, why the Ascians didn't take the Ul'dah horn as well, since Corguevais clearly had a shadow.

When the Ixali came to Eorzea, they already worshiped Garuda. So Primals aren't a recent concept (summoning them may be) and they clearly have a deeper history than we currently can know. There could be an unlimited amount of Primals and they all feel some need to attach themselves to a group of beings, so the idea that Ascians, Garleans, and the 5 Races have Primals as well is easy to make. But you would think that the 5 Races would each have their own individual Primals as well and they just may, we'll have to see.

Very interesting theories being brought up, thanks.

[Anonymoose]

When the Ixali came to Eorzea, they already worshiped Garuda. So Primals aren't a recent concept (summoning them may be) and they clearly have a deeper history than we currently can know.

This is an interesting concept in and of itself, really; The Ixal show up in The Twelveswood in 1022 Sixth Astral Era still having the capability of flight, reverence for other creatures, and seemingly some semblance of sanity (Great. Talking like a lalafell now). Basically they were Yagudo. At this time, they already worship Garuda - but not as the Lady of the Vortex, but The Empress of Birds.

In the days when the Ixal were still happy and still had flight, they told stories of how she liberated the world from the Lord of Snakes, who sought to bind all things to earth. They explain away her fiery temper by saying that she was so wounded from this battle that she consumed the snake to heal her wounds and thus gained a taste for mortal flesh.

However, the Ixal quickly wear out their welcome in the Twelveswood due to unchecked consumption and reproduction and were exiled by the elementals. This ordeal didn't take very long at all. To do some math, they invented the Ixal balloons in about 1422 after "generations came and went" of being born with less and less feathers, which started happening after they arrived in Xelphatol (their true home is NOT Natalan, which is just a stronghold - the Empire has cracked down on Xelphatol pretty hard, though, so they may have fled recently).

Garuda's visage alone struck them as the greatest of all birds, which demanded the greatest of all reverence... but this has been in vain! The closer they get to her, the more her influence causes them to become alienated, restricted, and dependent on her. Their desperation to fly again, to be a functioning society again, to have the blessing and protection required to survive their new isolation and enemy status, depends entirely on Garuda, and to get it requires that they hand the Power of the Crystal over to her at all costs.

Keep in mind that this is all false legend. Garuda has no stake in any of this beyond her ability to monopolize aether in this reality. I'll let her speak for herself:

Landwalkers are worms, bound to crawl in filth. I shall scatter you all, for I am the wind! THE RECKONING COMES! The reckoning of all mortals. This is the price of your folly. The price of using the crystals' power─MY POWER!─to waken the other from slumber. That power belongs to me. All of it. It is mine. Mine! ALL MIIINE!!! You will not live to repeat your folly. It ends, worms of the forest. It all ends! Now, die. Die. Die! DIE!!! DIIIIIIEEE!!!

This inevitably lead to her summoning at the first available chance; 1562 (SAE) with the assistance of the Paragons. The way the lore talks about primals, it gets a little ambigous as to the where and when, especially when it comes to Titan and Leviathan. All available information suggests that no primal was summoned in recent history before the fall of Midgardsormr. The good news is that official SE releases lumped the summoning of Titan, Garuda, and Ifrit to the same date: ten years ago. Because Leviathan and Titan were pushed back at the same time, we can assume that Leviathan, too, was first raised in recent times ten years ago, as well, and Limsa Lominsa's Company of Heroes simply took them down with impressive speed and efficiency (God, we're badass).

The take-home message here is that the entities themselves are primordial, but the change in status-quo is very, very recent. The big question is... "Is this the first time this has happened?" The red moon of Allag seems to imply that is it not...

Sources:
'NEATH GARUDA'S SHADOW
Garuda, Ruler of the Skies!

[Catapult]

The biggest strength of your case is the timing. We know the Garlean invasion of Mor Dhona took on Midgardsormr 10 years ago, 5 years after the conquering of Ala Mhigo. And we know that Midgardsormr isn't what convinced them to turn back - a legitimate primal was.

The echoes of the main storyline introductions for each city seem to be about ten years past, shortly after the Battle of Silvertear Skies. This is when Y'shtola loses the horn.

If you're correct, then Midgardsormr's death caused Swallowtail Roam (Seal Rock) to rise, and with it the Sea Serpent and the Treasure (Horn), which would have been stolen from Y'shtola / Sthalmann only weeks later during the initial post-Silvertear investigation of Eorzea by the Circle of knowing.

This would have occurred BEFORE the Garleans encountered the primal and AFTER the horn was stolen.

You've got a serious shot at being onto something, there, sir.

Woah woah woah! Continuity check.

Speak of the Garlean advance discusses how shortly after the victory at Ala Mhigo, the appearance of a primal halted their advance. "Shortly after" is not five years, especially when people talk about how since this incident, the Garleans have barely been seen with the exception of the battle of Silvertear Skies ten years ago.

A primal appeared near Ala Mhigo fifteen years ago, not ten, and thus well before the events we have been echoing.

[Catapult]

In the days when the Ixal were still happy and still had flight, they told stories of how she liberated the world from the Lord of Snakes, who sought to bind all things to earth. They explain away her fiery temper by saying that she was so wounded from this battle that she consumed the snake to heal her wounds and thus gained a taste for mortal flesh.

I wonder if this has any connection to the twin adders that appear on the heraldry of Gridania and its worship of Nophica, goddess of the Land.

[Anonymoose]

Woah woah woah! Continuity check.

You have a point about that being another interpretation. That area is SUPER foggy, so if I sounded like I was trying to be conclusive, I apologize. Lemme dig around here, for a sec. My foundation on that is wrong in that regard, you're right.

In subjugating Ala Mhigo, van Baelsar employed subterfuge to stoke the fires of civil unrest, a masterstroke which led to the nation's capture without the need for a protracted siege. However, the unanticipated appearance of a primal shortly thereafter prompted the Empire to halt the legion's advance. The legatus has since remained in Ala Mhigo, where he rules as an imperial viceroy.

We cannot conclusively say what period of time "shortly after" is by any means. The phrasing lends itself much better to "shortly after" being 1557-1560ish, BEFORE the fall of Midgardosrmr. I simply meant to speculate that, were his connections right, it wouldn't shatter the lore and would tie up loose ends. I should have gone with "could mean" and not "would mean." I don't think that means they ran into the primal in Ala Mhigan lands, though.

To quote some history:

The date is 1468 of the Sixth Astral Era. The forces of Ala Mhigo have crossed the Velodyna River, whose waters form the border with neighboring Gridania, and now claim dominion over the East Shroud.

If one is to continue an advance (as opposed to halt it) on Eorzea from a conquered Ala Mhigo, they would likely take the same path that Ala Mhigans did when attempting to invade the very same territory. This places them right in the East Shroud, which is exactly where the Empire resumed their march, as well. Interestingly, this is exactly where the Sylph village lies. This was the source of my first assumption that the primal encountered must have been Ramuh, however I've seen no reason to distrust the Sylphs when they say they refuse to summon him. For starters, they're still friendly, they're still small and weak, and most importantly, outright support the idea of crystal socialism (equal distribution to every tribe and city).

Does this make it a likelier candidate than Odin? Perhaps. It depends entirely on where he's hanging out! In the trailer we see him with a perfectly circle roof opening above. Nature doesn't work in perfect shapes. So, where is this? We have Gelmorra Ruins to the North:

This image Yoshida-san showed us is clearly the North Shroud (bodies of water line up perfectly from old maps to new), and we do have a dungeon there, now! We know the Gelmorrans work with circles as evidenced by that tonberry pit

That Claudio...

We also know that there are some ruins of similar fashion out by Nine Ivies, near Spirithold, (WHICH I'M TOTALLY NOT BREAKING NDA BY TALKING ABOUT, IT'S MENTIONED IN A LEVEQUEST). Those line up pretty well, too!

Fact of the matter is that this is future content, and we should be focusing on the old.

Long story short, I do think you're right to call me out on that continuity shake-up; I find it statistically most likely that The Empire took Ala Mhigo, then moved south into the East Shroud and be scared off by WHOMEVER, which made them pull back and make a hail-mary play for Silvertear. In this scenario, the loss of the horn would occur AFTER they would have run into the Primal, causing a ripple in that connection making sense.

I just liked the idea of the horn connection and jumped into ways it might fit, lol. It certainly doesn't seem very likely that they moved on Silvertear before encountering the primal; however, everything we've seen so far says that the primals didn't start being summoned to our reality until after Midgardsormr fell. Perhaps Odin has the juice to pull that early appearance off. He's a very old and powerful primal. Ramuh probably couldn't, but Odin, maybe! I'll give you that one.

A big thing here for me is the connection between The Twelve (Olympians) and the Primals (Titans). Each realm, continent, whatever, seems to have an independent aetheric system. Midgardsormr, who it is rumored was created by The Twelve (as was the Sea Serpent, who appeared after his death), seemed to seal their access to power away. That lines up well with the Greek legends, not that SE is bound to it or anything; Odin sure wasn't there. So, it wouldn't break the lore. Doesn't make it likelier, so I'm still with you on calling me out on that one. But, it wouldn't break the lore.

Keep in mind, a connection between the horn and Odin, and even the ascians, could exist independent of the timing. We're just thinking of ways to put ALL of the puzzle pieces.

I wonder if this has any connection to the twin adders that appear on the heraldry of Gridania and its worship of Nophica, goddess of the Land.

... <dives into old notes>

I always figured that the two adders were the Gods' Quiver and the Wood Wailers; it implies that those entities have been around for thousands of years, but hey, the alliance as a whole has, so who's to say the entities within the cities haven't?

Still... snakes... interesting.

[Catapult]

Nice Analysis. I enjoy keeping you on your toes. I've always been better at disproving something than proving it, I guess.

So we're looking at a theory where Odin is of an Ascian nature. And according to a Japanese interview, one that has supposedly forgotten the meaning of his existence (I admit my theory on Louisoix becoming Odin would fall apart here, but hey, let's run with it). Time for me to get debunking this, eh?

One of the things particular about the Ascians was that in addition to casting no shadow on the environment, their bodies are kind of a light source unto themselves.
I believe this articulates it rather well. Compare the pair:

As you can see, the character model of the ascian is explicitly not impacted by the environment's lighting. If anything, it is actually brighter at night, but that may just be contrast playing with my eyes.

Now let us look at Odin in the footage we have of him.

That is clearly the impact moonlight we are seeing. Ergo, I have trouble drawing the conclusion that Odin is of an ascian nature.

Sleipnir, at the very least, also has a reflection which is arguably related to casting a shadow (this may be an assumption too far, mind you). Either way, if the place where your shadow would fall is completely on a reflective surface, which Odin is when not concealed by a camera, we can't work with examining for a shadow in this case.



I also proved something else to myself while I was rummaging:

Primals are not ascians. It may not be a theory people were playing with, but I feel it remains noteworthy. I suppose it provides a counter-argument that if Odin is the primal of the ascians, he can interact with light like other primals rather than being "separate" to light.

[HiirNoivl]

I said he could be an Ascian primal. Primals are not exactly bound by the physical characteristics of the people they're summoned by. And I was just throwing that out there without any prior research... but thanks for doing all that.

So we have Ifrit, Moogle (?), Garuda, Titan, Leviathan, Bahamut, Odin, Fenrir, Siren, Shiva, Ramuh, Alexander....

So that's 12, unless Moogle King wasn't really a primal and we're waiting on something else. (Anima?)

[Catapult]

I said he could be an Ascian primal. Primals are not exactly bound by the physical characteristics of the people they're summoned by. And I was just throwing that out there without any prior research... but thanks for doing all that.

So we have Ifrit, Moogle (?), Garuda, Titan, Leviathan, Bahamut, Odin, Fenrir, Siren, Shiva, Ramuh, Alexander....

So that's 12, unless Moogle King wasn't really a primal and we're waiting on something else. (Anima?)

Let's not put a cap on the number. Future content needs to be made.

[HiirNoivl]

Sorry but eventually stories have to end. :O