PVP gear

[Zumi]

What most MMOs do is have separate gear for PvP.

They have PvP only stats like PvP defense - reduces the damage you take from players, PvP attack increases the amount of damage done to players. When starting out you can use PvE gear but it won't be optimal for PvP but good enough to get started, as you do more PvP you get points to buy better PvP gear which will totally allow you to preform better in PvP but this gear you wouldn't want to use in PvE due to the fact it has stats on it only for PvP.

[Pwnagraphic]

I like the idea of PvE and PvP only sets. I am ready for him to elaborate more on PvP and I think the last Live Letter he said he would at a later time.

[Duelle]

I don't like the idea of diverging PvP and PvE where separate gear is required. Make it fun, make it semi casual with some decent rewards. Keep the focus on good PvE.

Making PvP only gear means you intend to support pvp to a very high standard, making it central in the game.

This. WoW's design took a hit once PvP went from being a side game in the form of battlegrounds to a central part of the game through arena post-TBC. Things that worked in mass PvP suddenly became overpowered in 3v3-5v5 settings.

That aside, while I may agree with abilities being balanced differently for PvE and PvP (shorter durations in PvP, less severe effects), I never really agreed with PvP being turned into its own game within the game. Being at the starter level where you basically eat dirt until you score enough points to buy your first set is not fun.

On to the OP's suggestion:

I can agree with gear with unique appearance that can be earned through PvP. With vanity slots on the way it would open up an additional look to choose for your character if you put in the time to earn the gear. So long as its not built within an asinine system like hamlet defense ranks, or the vanilla WoW pvp ranks, I think it would work.

[Matsume]

Hmmm...

There is a lot to be said about PvP. yet S.E. has been particularly tight-lipped in disclosing the details of it's implementation in FFXIV.

In this ChinaJoy2012 interview, Yoshi P confirms:

Q: What about PvP?
A: There will not be open PvP/ PK, and both players must mutually agree to a PvP match. Final Fantasy XIV will be the first game in the franchise to have a “meaningful” PvP system, hence I urge players to try it out.The word "meaningful" is left open to interpretation...

Q: Is it fair to say the PvP in Final Fantasy XIV is somewhat similar to World of Warcraft’s?
A: We will have a PvP arena, which is similar to the one found in World of Warcraft. Our PvP team members played many matches in World of Warcraft. Personally, I am a player of Dark Age of Camelot, a PvP-centric MMO

*text in red is my commentary

According to WoWWiki:

Arenas are areas in which teams of players can compete against each other in deathmatch-style PvP. Instead of participating in objective-based PvP, these contests center around your team's ability to obliterate the other team. The Arena PvP system matches teams of equal size together to increase fairness and make advancement to the highest tiers more difficult and more rewarding. The arena allows for 2v2, 3v3 and 5v5, but your team may have up to double the amount required for one fight (i.e. a 2v2 team can have four people in it). Unlike normal PvP, the arena also allows intra-faction competition.

Only level 80 player characters can gain a team rating or Arena Points (this was level 70 before season 5). Characters below level 80 can engage in practice matches. Teams require an Arena Team Charter in order to create an official team.

Arena Points are used as the currency to purchase Arena Rewards, which are considered to be on par with some of the mid-to high level PvE rewards; season 1 items being roughly equivalent to Tier 4, Season 2 to Tier 5, Season 3 to Tier 6, and the Season 4 to Tier 6.5 (except for the obvious fact that Tier gear is designed to kill mobs and PvE content, while PvP gear is designed to kill other players and offer high survivability for PvP; many players have full PvE and PvP sets and switch depending on content).

Five Arenas are currently available:

From wikipedia's DAoC page:

Player vs. player [13] - A single server (Mordred) has been set up to allow free for all PvP combat in almost all areas. Realm affiliations have been removed so unlike regular servers, its possible for a player to visit areas in all 3 realms. Players on this server can attack each other regardless of class, race, or realm origin. Newly created characters are safe up through level 10, at which their PvP safe flag is turned off. Players who wish to get into the action immediately may turn this flag off before reaching level 10, though this change cannot be reversed.

From what I understand, PvP in DAoC is done via a server dedicated to open world PvP/KP. You start back at lvl 1 and are can't be trolled by higher lvl players until lvl 10. I didn't play DAoC so I can't elaborate on this topic and since I'm too lazy to search more I'll just ask someone who's played the game to explain what PvP was like in DAoC...

Other than that from what I have read in this thread, player's concerns range over 5 primary aspects of PvP:

1) Degree of Integration with PvE:
-Essentially this comes down the boundaries delineating PvP from PvE.

-I think in WoW your PvE and PvP level were one and the same. However PvP is not open world. You have to walk up to a battlemaster and choose between non ranked pug/team and ranked team matches (once you've reached max lvl) where you can earn Arena Points. I think you can use PvE gear in PvP matches and you can use Arena Points to purchase PvP gear that is equivalent to high tier PvE gear.

- From what I understand PvE and PvP in DAoC was done on a server apart. There were non PvP servers where you could PvE without the risk of being attacked by over players and there was a PvP server which is essentially identical to a PvE server with the added bonus of open world PvP and PK post lvl 10. If you wanted to PvP you essentially have to restart on the PvP server.

2) Progression:
- The way you progress will ultimately be decided by the degree of integration.

- In the arena system it is safe to assume your PvE level will carry over to PvP unless SE goes GW2 on us and gives you a free max level character to play with despite your PvE lvl being 1. If the former is the case, then I would expect a bracketed or tier based level cap system every 5 or 10 lvls (lvl 10, 15, 20, 25 caps etc.)

- Team ranking: akin to WoW, once you've obtained max lvl you can form a PvP team not unlike a free company and compete in ranked matches against other teams of players.

- PvP currency that can be used to purchase PvP gear so as to reward players that dedicate their time to PvP instead of forcing them to PvE for the best gear (although Yoshi P is vehement on making PvE the main focus of FFXIV so I wouldn't be surprised to see PvE gear usable in PvP)

3) Gear:
- This topic ties in directly to the last point on progression. Some players here seem concerned over the line separating PvE gear from PvP gear. Major issue being whether PvE gear should be usable in PvP and vice versa. If so then should there be changes to certain gear stats to favor or discourage the use of one type of gear ver another?

- If, as Yoshi P claims, FFXIV PvP will be similar to WoW Arena, then there is a high probability of seeing some sort of PvP point or currency based system which would be used to purchase PvP specific gear.

- If PvE gear will be usable in PvP Arena the question that begs to be asked is whether or not they will have different stats or not. Obviously one stat in specific stands out to be most affected: Enmity, since enmity is used to attract a monsters attention I doubt that it will have the same effect on players if any effect at all.

4) Spells and Abilities:
- This essentially comes down to the scaling of spell potency and the cooldowns on abilities.

- Will a new damage calculation algorithm have to be written for PvP content or will PvP use the same equation as PvE content? Are there any new variables (that a player has and monsters in game don't have) that will need to be factored in to the current equation?

-Will spells and abilities have identical effects in PvP that they currently have in PvE? Or will they be modified in their effects or cooldowns? Will the universal cooldown be implemented as it is in PvE?

5) Skill:
- Main concern is that player skill should be rewarded over that of gear. A skilled player in poor gear should be able to beat an unskilled player in good gear, however more slowly than if that unskilled player were in poor gear.

My two cents: Personally I enjoyed WoW's non Arena style objective based PvP content (capture the flag, king of the hill etc.) which was divided into lvl brackets. This system was used in conjunction with PvE gear which encouraged players to make alternate "twink" characters at the max level allowed for a specific bracket and created an economic demand on rare high-stat low lvl gear.

In this system players with the best gear definitely had an edge over under-leveled and under-geared players but I think the economic benefits this brought far outweighed the slightly negative consequences. I'm thinking specifically about giving FFXIV crafters an extra outlet for gear with multiple materia melds. For this reason, I strongly advocate that FFXIV PvP brackets be synchronized with Materia Tier level so that players are encouraged to make better use of the lower tier materias (currently relegated to grinding achievements)

[Alhanelem]

Generally, pvp players have different stat needs than PvE players. You don't really need to isolate PvE and PvP gear, in large part because what's best for PvP isn't necessarily best for PvE. as long as matchups are sufficiently random, no isolation is required- if the reward is consummate with the difficulty of obtaining it, it will be balanced. If absolutely necessary depending on the item, you can make it so the stats change depending on here the item is used (example: FFXI had many items that gave large stat bonuses but only in certain events, like "+1% waltz potency / Campaign: +10% waltz potency")- Disallowing equipping outside of PvP would be extremely bad, because then you couldn't wear it around and show it off. WoW has never really had an issue with PvE vs PvP gear balance- hardcore raid rewards are always superior to PvP rewards.

oh, and on DaOC: I don't think it was just that one server that had PvP- All servers had PvP, but on the special server it was a totally unrestricted free for all except for new characters.

Because PvP is not going to be open world it doesn't need special servers and it doesn't need special considerations made. As long as no PvP gear is superior to gear that is significantly harder to obtain (e.g. from raids etc), no special exclusions or rules or anything need to be made.

[Zumi]

I done WoWs PvP arenas mostly did 2v2. Basically worked like this currently.

To get started you could buy some crafted gear that was PvP gear this would give you an advantage over the people who step into arenas with say quest gear. Other then that you could do random battle grounds matches you up against random people to earn honor points this lets you buy an entry level of gear higher then crafted gear.

Now you start arenas 2v2, 3v3, or 5v5. Object of the game is to kill everyone on the other team. When you win you get Conquest Points, which let you buy a better quality PvP gear, these had a hard cap of how many you could earn per week. Arenas are rated you get rating points if you win if you lose you lose points. If your team gets a high enough rating you get access to buy better PvP gear. PvP in WoW has seasons after 6 months or so they have an end of a season in which people get titles and mounts if they were on top 0.5% of PvP teams they get some special mount or title. A new seasons starts and the Conquest gear, best PvP gear gets put on honor vendors which you get by doing random battle grounds and a new better set of gear is placed on the Conquest point vendors, so people get to do it all over again do Arenas to get the new better set of gear.

[Duelle]

I think in WoW your PvE and PvP level were one and the same. However PvP is not open world. You have to walk up to a battlemaster and choose between non ranked pug/team and ranked team matches (once you've reached max lvl) where you can earn Arena Points. I think you can use PvE gear in PvP matches and you can use Arena Points to purchase PvP gear that is equivalent to high tier PvE gear.

Depends on which era. Vanilla WoW went by a rank system determined by how much you played and how many kills you got during battlegrounds. Your PvP rank determined what gear you could buy, with additional gear you could purchase after earning a certain level of reputation with the battleground factions (Silverwing Sentinels/Warsong Outriders, League of Arathor/The Defilers, Stormpike Guard/Frostwolf Clan).

The concept was solid, but the way to earn rank and rank decay itself are what pretty much ruined the system to the point the Grand Marshalls/High Warlords were either sharing their account with other people to earn the playtime required or were literally hooked up to their computer for the same.

If PvE gear will be usable in PvP Arena the question that begs to be asked is whether or not they will have different stats or not. Obviously one stat in specific stands out to be most affected: Enmity, since enmity is used to attract a monsters attention I doubt that it will have the same effect on players if any effect at all.

If anything, this reflects the simple fact that enmity as a stat should probably not exist and be removed, with appropriate adjustments given to the tank jobs to compensate.

Main concern is that player skill should be rewarded over that of gear. A skilled player in poor gear should be able to beat an unskilled player in good gear, however more slowly than if that unskilled player were in poor gear.

Skill's value in the equation becomes close to nil once you toss in gear as a variable. This is pretty much where WoW's PvP and focus on arena became a joke.

Personally I enjoyed WoW's non Arena style objective based PvP content (capture the flag, king of the hill etc.) which was divided into lvl brackets. This system was used in conjunction with PvE gear which encouraged players to make alternate "twink" characters at the max level allowed for a specific bracket and created an economic demand on rare high-stat low lvl gear.

Except said high stat low level gear was for the most part BoP and had to be earned through dungeons. Pre-Cataclysm twinks had to time themselves in such a way as to stay within their intended brackets and get the gear. I mean, if you want to talk about gold circulation yes they would pay mercs to run them through dungeons or have friends in twink guilds run them. At most, twinks played into the economy via enchants, as pre-WotLK max level enchants like Crusader had no level requirements.

[Alhanelem]

Your existing PvE gear should be completely useable in PvP. some stats may be irrelevant, and therefore those items will not be optimal for PvP, but you should be able to wear what you want when you want. Arbitrary restrictions based on where you are are not a good idea.

If you couldn't do this, you'd have to start out naked or buy a special set of gear before you even play pvp for the first time, so that's one reason why it's not a good idea.

[Zumi]

Your existing PvE gear should be completely useable in PvP. some stats may be irrelevant, and therefore those items will not be optimal for PvP, but you should be able to wear what you want when you want. Arbitrary restrictions based on where you are are not a good idea.

If you couldn't do this, you'd have to start out naked or buy a special set of gear before you even play pvp for the first time, so that's one reason why it's not a good idea.

It doesn't work so when when say, you only do high end PvE you get a bunch of high quality PvE gear. Then you are like I am going to step in to arenas and faceroll a bunch of PvP only players because of my superior PvE gear. That's why a lot of games use separate gear and progression paths for PvE and PvP. If you do PvP you should be getting rewards that let you preform well in PvP if your fighting someone who only does PvE and never set foot in PvP at all you should have an advantage against them.

[Ragento]

Hmmm...

There is a lot to be said about PvP. yet S.E. has been particularly tight-lipped in disclosing the details of it's implementation in FFXIV.

In this ChinaJoy2012 interview, Yoshi P confirms:


*text in red is my commentary

According to WoWWiki:



From wikipedia's DAoC page:



From what I understand, PvP in DAoC is done via a server dedicated to open world PvP/KP. You start back at lvl 1 and are can't be trolled by higher lvl players until lvl 10. I didn't play DAoC so I can't elaborate on this topic and since I'm too lazy to search more I'll just ask someone who's played the game to explain what PvP was like in DAoC...

Other than that from what I have read in this thread, player's concerns range over 5 primary aspects of PvP:

1) Degree of Integration with PvE:
-Essentially this comes down the boundaries delineating PvP from PvE.

-I think in WoW your PvE and PvP level were one and the same. However PvP is not open world. You have to walk up to a battlemaster and choose between non ranked pug/team and ranked team matches (once you've reached max lvl) where you can earn Arena Points. I think you can use PvE gear in PvP matches and you can use Arena Points to purchase PvP gear that is equivalent to high tier PvE gear.

- From what I understand PvE and PvP in DAoC was done on a server apart. There were non PvP servers where you could PvE without the risk of being attacked by over players and there was a PvP server which is essentially identical to a PvE server with the added bonus of open world PvP and PK post lvl 10. If you wanted to PvP you essentially have to restart on the PvP server.

2) Progression:
- The way you progress will ultimately be decided by the degree of integration.

- In the arena system it is safe to assume your PvE level will carry over to PvP unless SE goes GW2 on us and gives you a free max level character to play with despite your PvE lvl being 1. If the former is the case, then I would expect a bracketed or tier based level cap system every 5 or 10 lvls (lvl 10, 15, 20, 25 caps etc.)

- Team ranking: akin to WoW, once you've obtained max lvl you can form a PvP team not unlike a free company and compete in ranked matches against other teams of players.

- PvP currency that can be used to purchase PvP gear so as to reward players that dedicate their time to PvP instead of forcing them to PvE for the best gear (although Yoshi P is vehement on making PvE the main focus of FFXIV so I wouldn't be surprised to see PvE gear usable in PvP)

3) Gear:
- This topic ties in directly to the last point on progression. Some players here seem concerned over the line separating PvE gear from PvP gear. Major issue being whether PvE gear should be usable in PvP and vice versa. If so then should there be changes to certain gear stats to favor or discourage the use of one type of gear ver another?

- If, as Yoshi P claims, FFXIV PvP will be similar to WoW Arena, then there is a high probability of seeing some sort of PvP point or currency based system which would be used to purchase PvP specific gear.

- If PvE gear will be usable in PvP Arena the question that begs to be asked is whether or not they will have different stats or not. Obviously one stat in specific stands out to be most affected: Enmity, since enmity is used to attract a monsters attention I doubt that it will have the same effect on players if any effect at all.

4) Spells and Abilities:
- This essentially comes down to the scaling of spell potency and the cooldowns on abilities.

- Will a new damage calculation algorithm have to be written for PvP content or will PvP use the same equation as PvE content? Are there any new variables (that a player has and monsters in game don't have) that will need to be factored in to the current equation?

-Will spells and abilities have identical effects in PvP that they currently have in PvE? Or will they be modified in their effects or cooldowns? Will the universal cooldown be implemented as it is in PvE?

5) Skill:
- Main concern is that player skill should be rewarded over that of gear. A skilled player in poor gear should be able to beat an unskilled player in good gear, however more slowly than if that unskilled player were in poor gear.

My two cents: Personally I enjoyed WoW's non Arena style objective based PvP content (capture the flag, king of the hill etc.) which was divided into lvl brackets. This system was used in conjunction with PvE gear which encouraged players to make alternate "twink" characters at the max level allowed for a specific bracket and created an economic demand on rare high-stat low lvl gear.

In this system players with the best gear definitely had an edge over under-leveled and under-geared players but I think the economic benefits this brought far outweighed the slightly negative consequences. I'm thinking specifically about giving FFXIV crafters an extra outlet for gear with multiple materia melds. For this reason, I strongly advocate that FFXIV PvP brackets be synchronized with Materia Tier level so that players are encouraged to make better use of the lower tier materias (currently relegated to grinding achievements)

Thanks a ton for the post very descriptive and in depth. I think the materia based bracket can be solved with a ranking system where they bracket closely ranked players together