Counter to Elitism

[Maxthunder]

There's a way to counter "elitism" as everyone understands it.
In fact, the real problem is how people understand "casual play" and "hardcore play".
Casual players are not bad players, they just don't have several hours per day to invest on the game. Likewise, hardcore players are not necessarily good players.
I know people who can't properly do their job even if they spend hours and hours in the game.

Now, imagine a reward system based on player skills. For example, you enter in a dungeon as a WHM, and you get a pool of points. Each time a member dies, you loose points, when you Cure in combat, you gain points, etc...at the end, you got a reward based on the amount of points you have.

This way, if you know your job, you'll get a better reward, and if you don't...well, you can't complain for being a bad player. And a good casual player will be rewarded far more than a bad hardcore player.

Back in 1.XX, who deserved the better drop ? A party that could defeat Ifrit in 10 min without any casualties, or a party that killed it 10 times with a nearly full wipe each time ?

This would be awesome, but than we would still have those that complain they cant get the best gear lol.

[Thunderz]

This is a MMO

They make money from your monthly fee

How do they keep you playing the game?

Grind (drop rate, exp, crafting, etc)

The longer it takes for you to achieve something in the game means more $$ for SE

will they make it easier for you to obtain gear or speed up the leveling rate (jobs or craft)

Nope

If everyone gets what they want then whats the point of playing

[Reynhart]

The longer it takes for you to achieve something in the game means more $$ for SE

The longer it takes for you to repeat the same mindless events over and over waiting for a lucky drop, the greater the chances you'll get bored and just stop playing.

I've played FF XI since CoP, getting punished by the abysmal drop rate, boring events and insane number of items you need to get any gear worth mentionning. 6 years and two children later, I won't stand the same dumb system.

I really think that most players are like me, that they've reached adulthood, get a job, a family, and can't really spend 18 hours a day in the game just to bragg about a piece of gear...that will be useless several updates later, by the way...

I think SE need to find a way to keep those players in the game too.

As for the leveling system, it should be part of the exploration and missions. I really don't understand why every MMO I know just assume that scenario and levelling should be separated.

Offline games picked some mechanics from MMO, like grinding fest and ridiculous drop rate...maybe it should be the other way round, for once.

[Abriael]

There's only a way to counter elitism. And it is to isolate, shun and generally ignore elitists.

They won't go away, but you'll feel a lot better after you'll stop caring about them.

[MuCephei]

There will always be elitists and casual people in mmos. Just play ARR and have fun Scratchs.

[Almalexia]

Now, imagine a reward system based on player skills. For example, you enter in a dungeon as a WHM, and you get a pool of points. Each time a member dies, you loose points, when you Cure in combat, you gain points, etc...at the end, you got a reward based on the amount of points you have.

This way, if you know your job, you'll get a better reward, and if you don't...well, you can't complain for being a bad player. And a good casual player will be rewarded far more than a bad hardcore player.

If this system were run by a nonhuman, it would easily punish the wrong people.

Let's say you have a PLD backed by a WHM. Despite the WHM's best efforts, sustaining the PLD becomes impossible. Too much healing rapidly depletes MP. The PLD finally eats dirt and the mob goes on a rampage, wiping the party.

The system says the WHM should be punished--

But wait.

The PLD didn't use damage mitigation abilities very efficiently. So, really, the PLD is to blame--

But wait!

This all could have been prevented if the BRD used Soul Voice and gave the WHM enough MP to see the battle through. The system would never have noticed the BRD is to blame--

BUT WAIT!

As it turns out, the BLMs were overcautious with nuking due to enmity concerns, but they could have safely dealt thousands more damage. The battle would have been over more quickly if not for the BLMs--

BUT WAIT!

The DRG dealt the bare minimum of damage necessary for reward then alt-tabbed to complain about immersion on the Lodestone. The system didn't realize it was being played by the DRG--

BUT WAIT!

You didn't invite a MNK. What's wrong with you?

BUT

WAIT!

The chat log reveals the WHM never once let the PLD cure himself: clear evidence of an incompetent WHM. So, the system was right all along in punishing the WHM.

Right?

Wrong.

It was a Salvage-style dungeon and the PLD never had his magic unlocked. Furthermore, the mob frequently inflicted amnesia and kept the PLD from effectively mitigating damage.

Is any programmable system sophisticated enough to measure all these variables and allot points fairly? No. It would be as superficial as a parser without any regard for context or non-numerical performance. "Knowing your job" would scarcely factor into it.

The game shouldn't be scoring individuals for party-based content anyway. That's the party's business. The game should only impose impartial measurements such as time trials or completion of objectives--something the whole party can work on. Otherwise, the game will devolve into a bunch of people playing together by themselves instead of cooperatively.

[Hanemakikaze]

Just a random wish. I hope ARR incorporates features which discourages elitism and promotes casual players participating in more dungeons, other higher end activities.

For Example:

Perhaps a higher drop rate bonus when having a first time dungeon player in your group.

Bonus XP for entire party when grouping with a player with high rested time.

I'm sure theres many other ways, but basically giving incentive to group with casual players.

Thanks for reading

You have to believe in the heart of the cards. Only then will you thwart elitisms merciless grasp.

[VoltaAsura]

I kinda think that this thread got hijacked by people posting things regarding the issue of what they believe "elitism" is and what it has meant to them throughout their experience with MMOS. (I'm not gonna lie, I was originally gonna jump on that bandwagon too, and not just cuz I feel that im hardcore or leet, but because I feel an MMO has to promote elitism to survive-for content, but ill digress)

I had to go back and address your original question OP and you bring up some interesting ideas...

It has been said that ARR will have a shifted focus to help out and accommodate more casual players, but from my understanding, it just seems like more spammable levequests/quests, making it more solo friendly, and potentially higher drop rates, a token based loot system for dungeons and level sync in certain content......NOW covering all that and taking it into account, when viewing your ideas.....it makes me wonder if the devs had this kinda stuff in mind for ARR as well, to cater to more casual players? I wonder this cuz your ideas actually promote more party play than anything, making it so that leet players are more apt or have some incentive to inviting a randy or newer (casual) person. It seems like a more revolutionary idea and change from more spammable solo stuff, or a fate system that everyone can play, or even level capped content....AND the more experienced/elite/hardcore players get more in the end?? It's a very great idea, if I say so myself. lol

[Nayto]

This is a MMO

They make money from your monthly fee

How do they keep you playing the game?

Grind (drop rate, exp, crafting, etc)

The longer it takes for you to achieve something in the game means more $$ for SE

will they make it easier for you to obtain gear or speed up the leveling rate (jobs or craft)

Nope

If everyone gets what they want then whats the point of playing

Unfortunately their current direction is more focused on getting more people to play than making them stay longer...

[Reynhart]

Let's say you have a PLD backed by a WHM. Despite the WHM's best efforts, sustaining the PLD becomes impossible. Too much healing rapidly depletes MP. The PLD finally eats dirt and the mob goes on a rampage, wiping the party.

The system says the WHM should be punished--

But wait.

...

Sorry, your post is a bit too long for me to quote it entirely, but you made a good point...except...you're only seeing the punishment side.
In your case, everybody died, there's already a penalty for the group. In fact a wipe is everyone's fault, even if Curing can be a major problem.

But let's say everyone starts with 0 points. Punishment is not an issue if we don't do negative values.

But wait !
The DRG dealt a great DPS, so he can get a better reward (There's no need to be a "minimum value for reward")

But wait !
The BLM also deat a lot of damage without being first on hate list, so he should be rewarded too.

But wait !
The BRD buffed the party accordingly (Ballad on mages, Paeon on DD, etc...) so he should be rewarded too.

But wait !
The PLD used damage mitigation well and lost only a few Hp per second, while staying up on the hate list. He should be rewarded too.

The system don't need to be overly precise, and shouldn't focus on punishment only.
Encourage people to play their job wisely, and they will learn to do it.

And you can keep an hamlet-type scoring to reward a good party as a whole.

But w